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Joyous Allelouia Discussion -- Ophadece
  • Hi everyone
    This is to clarify something that was being discussed on coptichymns.net but i cant comment on it over there because their registration is disabled.
    In terms of the joyous allelouia for psalm 150 it does have its sources and it is an authentic hymns however not the way ibrahim ayad recorded it. Muallem Tawfik says that he learned this hymn from the Great Muallem Mikhail. He records the hymn for the feast of Resurrection. Muallem Tawfik also taught it to Muallem Fahim. The hymn itself consists of 4 allelouias and a response like IHC PXC Aftonf ... etc. Fr mettias nasr and muallem zaher also record this hymn. Fr. Mettias for Pentecost with its response as well(tarkeeb) and Muallem Zaher for all Joyous Feasts with the response as well. Also Albair Gamal from the HCOC has a lesson for this hymn on copticheritage.org and he says the response for the feast of resurrection. What ibrahim ayad did was he took the Allelouias and left the response so that they didnt have to rakib all the other responses for every feast. Personally i dont agree with it. Thats the clarification of it. WHen i learn it i am going to the learn the responses for each feast.
  • You are confusing some things that I'll discuss latter in a post.
  • dear Christ_rose,
    please explain what you meant by saying that cantor Ibrahim left the refrain so that they don't fit it on the tune?
  • OK....as simply as i can put it:

    The recording of this, i think, the original was recorded by M.Tawfik for the Pentecost Feast. I am saying I THINK because i need to confirm with my recordings which are back home and I am in my dorm. THIS RECORDING is what Fr. Mettias records. Fr. Mettias didn't rakeeb, atleast on the base of the original recording belonging to M.Tawfik. a clear reason for this also is Fr. Mettias was really close to M.Tawfik when his was in the Maharaq and also when he used to come to Cairo to HICS and teach them (like many other rites he records with them).

    The recording of M.Zaher takes the tune above and rakkeb on other feasts.....which is FINE.

    Now for m.Ibrahim, he have a source as he told us when we asked him personally (MAYBE even a RECORDING according to maher as on ch.net) that you can rakkep the alli on the sherat.

    christ_rose, i don't think you'd like this, BUT IT'S true.....Cantor Ibrahim took the teaching of the source and applied it; where he rakkep the alli on the sherat.....it's the same thing as what he did to lahn Iona pi-`prophetiss that you didn't like.....

  • No Mina,
    I disagree with you here. There is a difference between joyous alleluja and [coptic]Iwna piprovytyc[/coptic]. In my opinion, fitting alleluja on sharat is not so orthodox in principle. Why I say so, because no other alleluja goes along with sharat in the tune in other ceremonials, namely annual, Kiahkly, Lenten (days - who knows where is the Lenten Sat & Sun? I heard some say that it is the annual and then take the tune onto Lenten mo7ayer; that was by the by: what do you think about this one?). Now to revive the joyous alleluja and the sha'anini alleluja, I respect cantor Ibrahim in fitting the tune onto the sharat, but I don't assume that is a ritual canon anyway.
    Now for [coptic]Iwna piprovytyc[/coptic] I agree with you that it is a doxology that can be sung on the tune of Communion hymns, as the latter do follow the tune of mo7ayyer and the fast anyway. I can understand Christ_rose's point though, and I also think it is a bit odd to tune it onto [coptic]Pimairwmi[/coptic] as this is a special hymn, and I don't think that it is the mo7ayyer really for weekdays (but having said that I may be wrong).
    Why do I believe in ritual canons and uniformity of hymns? Because I think this is one way how structure and organisation works in our church, and not only that, it means that oneness, and unity. How easy will it be if we all agree that alleluja's are sung differently to sharat, and memorise the hymns accordingly (without exceptions). That is only a personal opinion addition...
    [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
  • sorry for late reply
    yea mina ur right i dont like it at all
    Its not right its enough stuff that m.ibrahim has changed i think its time that we stopped. We arent here to make things up were here to preserve. Not change things.
    Why do we need to change things when they already exist?
    The recording of M.Tawfik was for the resurrection not pentecost
    M. Zaher has rakibed for every other feast
    Fr Mettias has recorded for pentecost.
    Again in terms of the sherat What source does ibrahim ayad have for that?
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=8808.msg110586#msg110586 date=1266185788]
    sorry for late reply
    yea mina ur right i dont like it at all
    Its not right its enough stuff that m.ibrahim has changed i think its time that we stopped. We arent here to make things up were here to preserve. Not change things.
    Why do we need to change things when they already exist?
    The recording of M.Tawfik was for the resurrection not pentecost
    M. Zaher has rakibed for every other feast
    Fr Mettias has recorded for pentecost.
    Again in terms of the sherat What source does ibrahim ayad have for that?
    [/quote]

    we'll....let's not draw much conclusions....they ARE CANTORS whom we should give a little trust....not only that but i doubt that they are stupid to make mistakes keda.

    first, are you sure about the mtawfik recording, because i still getting get the chance to search?

    second, you ignored Maher's response concerning this where he says that m.Ibrahim heard some recordings that we have no access to. I personally believe that. for example, the recording of great Kerie Leyson of weekdays lent. ALmost all the recordings of cantors don't add the last part that m.Ibrahim adds BUT we found out that M.Mikhail did record it with this long way before--an extended Kerie Leyson.

    again, i know really close people who spoke to him personally about this and he confirmed the source he have...hack i can even get his number and call him right now.....but i won't do that.

    the tapes that are on ch.net of mMikhail are not all what was recorded....there are MANY MORE that i am sure of and you can probably understand that from some of the readings about the project of Ragheb Moftah.

    Personal note: i don't get what's the big deal with seeing new things keda from Cantor Ibrahim. He didn't destroy anything of what we have.
    "Why do we need to change things when they already exist?" HE didn't change anything but rather adding to it....this is NOT THE FIRST TIME WE DISCOVER DIFFERENT ways of hymns.
  • Guys, something that we have to remember, is that the unity we have in most churches concerning the hymns is actually VERY recent. Before the recordings of muallem mikhael there were variations in what was chanted from church to church. For example the hymn apetjik is actually a hymn that was found only in el sa3eed.

    I agree with mina, what M. Ibrahim is doing is not something new nor is it wrong. He is recording and saying this is a way to start psalm 150 for various occasions, He is not saying this is the ONLY way it should be started/chanted. Its only one more way. There are many schools of thought and different ways to render certain hymns, and each way is valid. Another example, Tishori of good friday. There are 3 ways to chant it. The short more popular way. The longer way and an Alexandrian tune. Does that mean only one is correct? Of course not, simply just different schools of thought.

    God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
  • Here is my opinion,
    in terms of the allelouia
    Yes the tawfik recording is Resurrection i have it.
    2. i didnt follow mahers thing cuz i dont have an account and i didnt have the time to read all of everyones responses
    3. The sources that ibrahim ayad gets for these things are they reliable? think about it. if we have three or four cantors who have recorded it saying it this way, why would he need another source to say it the other way? in an interview with muallem tawfik he states that he taught this hymn to muallem fahim. and ibrahim ayad learned from muallem fahim right? i havent learned the sherat or the allelouia yet but i really am interested in finding out what sources he has. No disrespect to Muallem Ibrahim AYad. Hes an amazing cantor and his work is excellent but when u find new things keda its important to find out. the reason why im not fond of these new things is we have our rites, and our hymns heritage which is big enough without additions btw lol, and there shouldnt be addition to new thigns unless the Synod approves and agrements are reached to introduce this hymn a different way. thats my personal opinion but its open to discussion
    4. Kerie leyson does have the extension to it. The recordings of Muallem Mikhail as u said did have it. i learned that part as well. But the difference is that the source is known and accurate. At least if you are going to record a hymn that way which is different from every other recording we have and you have a source send it out. i dont understand why its unavailable.
    5. In terms of The Great Tishori, there are three ways to it but from what the standards are or what is preserved and taught nowadays HICS and the eklirikia stick with two more common ones considering there really arent many recordings of the third. For example i spoke to Mr wagdi Bishara and i asked him where the hymn came from and its source and he gave me all the answers. Theres other hymns taht exsit now or that have existed like Too Dipnoo and the long Owoniatk enthok for pascha and the LongAven piashieres and HCOC has recorded thembut a source is provided
    in Muallem Tawfiks recording he says that the hymn can be said in any festal tune so the hymn shouldnt be cut at the allelouias but rather tetrakib like M. Zaher did. Even if it is a different way to say it tab tell us the source or haga ya3ni.

    Pray for me
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=8808.msg110591#msg110591 date=1266189306]
    2. i didnt follow mahers thing cuz i dont have an account and i didnt have the time to read all of everyones responses
    [/quote]
    Maher said:
    It is authentic it the same as joyful shirat Mlm. Mikhail recorded it and Mlm.Habib Hanna and it is authentic.

    It has not been in use for a while but,there is an effort from HICS and IBO to bring all those back before they are lost.

    ALso
    I am answering Mlm.Mikhail & Mlm. Habib Hanna el Mirahm & Mlm. Tawfik ( Keep in mind my remarks in the past that the collection we have for Mlm. Mikhail is not all what he recorded). Mlm. Ibrahim is one of very very few who had un restricted access to all the recordings till certin point in time.



    3. The sources that ibrahim ayad gets for these things are they reliable?

    Define "reliable" when it comes to cantors? don't get yourself in a huge loophole that you'll not get out of...

    think about it. if we have three or four cantors who have recorded it saying it this way, why would he need another source to say it the other way?

    ok....thinking...and who are the 3-4 cantors who recorded this?! you only have mTawfik as a source....WHICH actually, some don't consider him as a true source for hymns but just another way for many hymns because he was farther from all of what's happening in the recovery of hymns period.


    in an interview with muallem tawfik he states that he taught this hymn to muallem fahim. and ibrahim ayad learned from muallem fahim right?

    I'd like to hear that interview....because i think the interview said he taught him o-oine afshai and not this. ALso we are not 100% sure that mIbrahim learned it from M.Fahim....he didn't learn EVERYTHING from him but he was mostly influenced by him.

    i havent learned the sherat or the allelouia yet but i really am interested in finding out what sources he has. No disrespect to Muallem Ibrahim AYad. Hes an amazing cantor and his work is excellent but when u find new things keda its important to find out. the reason why im not fond of these new things is we have our rites, and our hymns heritage which is big enough without additions btw lol, and there shouldnt be addition to new thigns unless the Synod approves and agrements are reached to introduce this hymn a different way. thats my personal opinion but its open to discussion

    Also, another big loophole....The Synod do not approve or disapprove hymns as easily and often as you think. They care more about the text and the general tune of hymns rather than these specifics.
    Who said our heritage is already full?!.....there are MANY, MANY things that we still don't know the tunes of. Many of these things are clearer now through Albairs book.


    4. Kerie leyson does have the extension to it. The recordings of Muallem Mikhail as u said did have it. i learned that part as well. But the difference is that the source is known and accurate. At least if you are going to record a hymn that way which is different from every other recording we have and you have a source send it out. i dont understand why its unavailable.

    M.Sadek, M.Faheem, M.Farag, (probably M.Tawfik) and M.Gad do NOT record it that have the extension....does that mean they are wrong?


    5. In terms of The Great Tishori, there are three ways to it but from what the standards are or what is preserved and taught nowadays HICS and the eklirikia stick with two more common ones considering there really arent many recordings of the third. For example i spoke to Mr wagdi Bishara and i asked him where the hymn came from and its source and he gave me all the answers. Theres other hymns taht exsit now or that have existed like Too Dipnoo and the long Owoniatk enthok for pascha and the LongAven piashieres and HCOC has recorded thembut a source is provided
    in Muallem Tawfiks recording he says that the hymn can be said in any festal tune so the hymn shouldnt be cut at the allelouias but rather tetrakib like M. Zaher did. Even if it is a different way to say it tab tell us the source or haga ya3ni.

    P

    ray for me
    [/quote]
  • So you're saying that the one Ibrahim Ayad records is according to muallem mikhail and muallem habib hanna and they say it the way he says it without the response? As i said i didnt learn either hymn so im not clear on what the differences are. Are there other differences between the two other than the lack of the response? or is it just that? and now that they found this other way they are trying to revive it? and if so how come only ibrahim ayad recorded it this way?

    The interview i have is a 2 hour audio one and he says that he taught him o oini afshai and the long faraihy allelouia and when he went back to his chorus in egypt and he said it they were surprised and they asked him what hymn that was.

    is there any way of getting a recording of this hymn the way ibrahim ayad records it by Mlm Habib Hanna?

    and u always have to make sure ur sources are reliable. personally i stick with HICS and M GAd and for reference and listening to bemazag ibrahim ayad lol if i need other sources i have faheem and tawfik and the tapes etc. So i always make sure i have very  good sources to refer back to

    In terms of those who recorded this hymn, Tawfik whom i consider a great source (and my reasons being in the interview which u probly have mina lol its a two hour audio interview), M Zaher,Fr. Mettias,And Albair has a lesson now online for it for the HCOC for the resurrection one in which he also includes the response and albair always has his sources as well.
    is there any way we can get ibos answer to the questions lol 

    In terms of kerie leyson yes many of them didnt record that part and no it doesnt mean its wrong but it does mean that we know of a source for it and its known that ibrahim ayad "revived" that part
    Pray for me
  • Maher made it clear that the recording is not available now.

    why does Ibo only records, simply because other cantors havn't heard or if they did, they didn't want to record it....NOT MUCH record things anyway.....

    i still wana hear that interview, i might of did but missed that part.

    for you to only consider HICS and Gad, you'll be throwing many other hymns out the window...not to consider that THEY learned it from other people whom they have trusted and DID NOT question those people authority.

  • u probly have the interview
    i guess and no i dont mean taht they are my only sources i look for those two first cuz i trust those the most and after that i check all the other thigns available and learn and see the difference between eryone and know who says what and thats it. i respect each muallem for all their efforts and i wouldnt deprive myself of the hymns that they sing!
    so now what do u suggest?
    i am learning the long sherat
    should i learn both allelouias with adn without the response?
    And what are the differences betweent the two? is one completely different
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=8808.msg110606#msg110606 date=1266199640]
    so now what do u suggest?
    i am learning the long sherat
    should i learn both allelouias with adn without the response?
    And what are the differences betweent the two? is one completely different
    [/quote]

    ohh, i don't think you'll be chanting either of them around here...:-D BUT, both are easy. The Ibo one is good because you are only learning the alleluias which you can say on all the festive feasts....not only this one.
  • actually mina thanks to abouna samuel we can say whatever we want to lol so thats why theres nothign that i wont learn cuz we cant say it WE say everything we know lol so there really arent many differences?
  • Dear Mina and christ_rose,
    There is one question confusing me so much. Cantor Ibrahim has been recording hymns for the last two decades on his own at least, and before that he was recording with the HICS if my observations are correct. I can't understand why in the last few years of the first decade of the 21st century cantor Ibrahim started propagating and teaching hymns that are different to other cantors, and "new", saying he has sources for them. Of course I am not drawing any inferences, and not pointing the finger, but it is surprising to me this practice. You know I am still novice anyway, and you can shed some light onto that for me, but in all honesty I am not someone in favour of modernising hymns, and make them "tacky" and easy for people to learn. Otherwise, we will lose more and more and more and more.
    My tuppence on this[coptic] ]souri [/coptic]debate: the slower longer tune is the correct edriby tune which should be used in Passion week. The other one (could be the Alexandrian tune christ_rose was referring to, although I don't know what the third tune refers to) can be specific to either Great Lent, or Feast of the Cross. Now, why I say so is because the latter is more joyous, and doesn't suit the Holy Friday (yes I know there is a joyous element in the Passion week as a principle, but comes with slower and longer hymns rather than ones like that). If you think about it: it starts like[coptic] `cmou P[C [/coptic]of midnight chants, goes on to something like the [coptic]hwc erof [/coptic]verse and concludes with a sentence again similar to [coptic]`cmou `P[C[/coptic]. Great Lent Sundays are a blend of joyous and humility kind of qualities, and Feast of the Cross is mainly joyous of course, which I see this tune fitting either of those ceremonials. However, it is more pragmatic of me to think that the tuneless (damg)[coptic] ]souri [/coptic]is reserved for the Sundays of the Great Lent, as it is the "basic" tune, which is also part of the rites of properties declaration (?) as rendered from HICS.
    [coptic]allylouia [/coptic]then: I don't trust in cantor Towfik's tunes most of the time, as he has got his melismata warped to some extent, as is evidenced in[coptic] `cmou P[C [/coptic]and acts response annual, besides other few hymns of the Passion week that I heard. However, why did Fr. Matthias and recently cantor Zaher took that teaching for granted? The more important question for me is why did cantor Ibrahim (as christ_rose mentioned) just remember now to spread his teaching after it has been recorded by other cantors? Maybe cantor Wagdi can answer all of those dilemmas, or may be Mina can contact cantor Ibrahim himself or someone close. I think Fr. Matthias is a reliable source of hymns himself, and till this very moment the idea of fitting the [coptic]allylouia [/coptic]tune on the sharat is not legitimate.
    Love to hear your opinions...
    [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
  • This is a lot to comment on, but i'll try to keep it brief. first, i didn't see the comment on Ti-shori el-hazayne before, so i'll say my opinion here.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=8808.msg110649#msg110649 date=1266269778]
    There is one question confusing me so much. Cantor Ibrahim has been recording hymns for the last two decades on his own at least, and before that he was recording with the HICS if my observations are correct. I can't understand why in the last few years of the first decade of the 21st century cantor Ibrahim started propagating and teaching hymns that are different to other cantors, and "new", saying he has sources for them. Of course I am not drawing any inferences, and not pointing the finger, but it is surprising to me this practice. You know I am still novice anyway, and you can shed some light onto that for me, but in all honesty I am not someone in favour of modernising hymns, and make them "tacky" and easy for people to learn. Otherwise, we will lose more and more and more and more.
    [/quote]
    Cantor Ibrahim doesn't propagating as much hymns as you might think......it just appears this way becuase the couple, hand-full hymns that he recently recorded are debated on. He is the youngest of the famous cantors in egypt so that why not much people have much respect for him. Most people think of him as the "pope's mu'allem" rather then the great cantor he is.
    With the recent recordings of write he has, he only added what was not there before. and i can explain everything he does.
    I doubt that his reasoning was to "make them "tacky" and easy for people to learn" but in this specific hymn it appears to us, ME, this way. he recorded many others that were hard and long. go to the palm sunday set he has and lazarus saturday set which i think is one of his best ever where he records EVERYTHING of those 2 days.

    My tuppence on this[coptic] ]souri [/coptic]debate: the slower longer tune is the correct edriby tune which should be used in Passion week. The other one (could be the Alexandrian tune christ_rose was referring to, although I don't know what the third tune refers to) can be specific to either Great Lent, or Feast of the Cross. Now, why I say so is because the latter is more joyous, and doesn't suit the Holy Friday (yes I know there is a joyous element in the Passion week as a principle, but comes with slower and longer hymns rather than ones like that). If you think about it: it starts like[coptic] `cmou P[C [/coptic]of midnight chants, goes on to something like the [coptic]hwc erof [/coptic]verse and concludes with a sentence again similar to [coptic]`cmou `P[C[/coptic].


    OK. Ti-Shori el-hazayne...in the clearest words ever, there are 3 ways: the normal one that is like esmo epshois, the m.Tawfik one (which i have to call the se'ede version) and an Alexandrian version that Wagdi records. They are all valid Wagdi have a source of an alexandrian cantor and i think i did hear it before, he didn't make it up....but not much people know about that because it's hard to get anything, hymns recordings, out of Alexandria because ppl there are not very friendly wherefore ppl outside think that they are just wrong at all the hymns!!!!!!!!!!

    Great Lent Sundays are a blend of joyous and humility kind of qualities, and Feast of the Cross is mainly joyous of course, which I see this tune fitting either of those ceremonials. However, it is more pragmatic of me to think that the tuneless (damg)[coptic] ]souri [/coptic]is reserved for the Sundays of the Great Lent, as it is the "basic" tune, which is also part of the rites of properties declaration (?) as rendered from HICS.

    well ti-shouri is not a festive hymn...it's a fasting one.

    [coptic]allylouia [/coptic]then: I don't trust in cantor Towfik's tunes most of the time, as he has got his melismata warped to some extent, as is evidenced in[coptic] `cmou P[C [/coptic]and acts response annual, besides other few hymns of the Passion week that I heard.

    be specific please. like i said before, cantor tawfik was not influenced as much by ppl outside....actually the whole Muharaq deer is this way--deer 'amer. So his recording for us are valuable. if they majorly differ, it's another way to say that hymn, LIKE MANY HYMNS IN OUR CHURCH, if they are ONLY recorded by him, then we talk that to be a main source.

    However, why did Fr. Matthias and recently cantor Zaher took that teaching for granted?

    The recording of Abouna Mettias is old....so it's not recent at all. Also M.Tawfik is one of the main cantors who were brought specially to HICS to teach hymns. He recorded many things with them--for example holy week and bright saturday. around that time Fr.Mettias was getting into all of this. odsoh is a great scholar in church teachings, especially hymns. ANd he was very close to MTawfik where odsah was at some point of time asked mTawfik to rakeeb St Cyril's with him to produce as a HICS recording. I know that for a fact from a private video interview with MTawfik. So this is not recent for Fr.Mettias.
    FOr m.Zaher, i don't really know much about him except he began to become famous with the movement of Anba Rafael towards alhan and coptic through the youthbishopric annual alhan conventions in egypt where as much as 600 people attend for coptic and alhan.

    The more important question for me is why did cantor Ibrahim (as christ_rose mentioned) just remember now to spread his teaching after it has been recorded by other cantors?

    simply because he didn't have them and he didn't have the same power to produce these recordings on tape....not only him but many others. many of his recordings are as old as the late 1980s....his annual tapes were recorded 1988, before i was born. ALSO, not much ppl CARED. we all LOVE alhan because we can easily find them now online and everywhere around us. but before, it was never that way.


    Maybe cantor Wagdi can answer all of those dilemmas, or may be Mina can contact cantor Ibrahim himself or someone close.

    I really don't want to do that.....as i said, i know people who did call him about this and he verified that he have a source, a teaching, where it said to do this....for the alli of course.

    I think Fr. Matthias is a reliable source of hymns himself, and till this very moment the idea of fitting the [coptic]allylouia [/coptic]tune on the sharat is not legitimate.


    He is a scholar. but i like him more as a great priest with an awesome voice rather than a cantor who knows hymns.
  • Mina,
    thanks for clarifying the issue with dashoria (sorry from mobile not all functions active). I logged onto youth-bishopric and I actually found a similar debate. A guy has a story about the source of that hymn cantor Ibrahim recorded. They say he went to pray in a town called Beba and asked the church head deacon to sing his version of alleluja and the latter started it on sharat and that's how cantor Ibrahim hot it. Most people on that forum stated their dislike and their doubt over the authenticity saying that Fr. Matthias's style from cantor Towfik should be regarded as authentic. God bless you and pray for us a lot


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