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why can't girls be deacons?
  • i know this is a wierd question, but why can only males be deacons? ???
  • they can become deaconesses---->female equiv of a deacon--------->however they consecrate their life to service in the church
  • thats correct, however, god has assignmed women to more demanding tasks. for example, helping the sick, cleaning the church, teaching usnday school. the role of a decon was allocated to men

    deaconesses are female deacons but they dont actually serve abouna in a mass like a deacon. they are simply nuns that serve the world
  • guys just wonderin did any of yall hear about the girl deaconenes or w.e it is i think its a rumor but i heard they have girl deacons in california thts wat i heard not sure though i dont think its real
  • [quote author=bigmak link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=0#msg47142 date=1139124800]
    guys just wonderin did any of yall hear about the girl deaconenes...

    deaconesses are girls ::)
  • ahah yes i live in california and the deaconess trend is catching on it was causing porblems in the begining but now i guess its ok
  • thanks guys i didn't know that
  • hey i wanna ask a question about something... do you have to be a certain age to be a deaconess?
  • bc they get their periods
    and its bad for a deacon to get a period
  • [quote author=50Centupinhereyo link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=0#msg47231 date=1139193041]
    bc they get their periods
    and its bad for a deacon to get a period


    i don't think so. how is it BAD. because of periods, women are not to enter the alter (i mean the main alter where the secrifice is brought) AND it's not the primary reason. and it doesn't effect the women in our church much except when a woman give birth. so than she needs to wait 40 days if she gave birth to a male or 80 days if she gave birth to a girl before taking communion.

    like it was said before, deacons are different than deaconess. different responsebilties and different duties for each.i don't think it's HARD to understand this. st Paul says each ones responsebility in the church we just need to follow them. and it's still not hard because in our secioty today, every one have have responsebilitiesssss. [glow=red,2,300]MEN AND WOMEN[/glow]. and they should never be the same. if they did the same things exactly the same, than y would there be MALE and FAMALE. :)
  • [quote author=Christ4Life link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=0#msg47219 date=1139187490]
    hey i wanna ask a question about something... do you have to be a certain age to be a deaconess?


    yea- u must have finished your full tertiary education (i.e college) and be working because similar to a nun, u give up everything so they want 2 c that u are leaving the world and its evil (lusts, money etc) so i think the age is round 23ish lol

    our deaconsesses here are in their mid-lite 20s
  • Deaconesses are NOT the equivalents of male deacons.
  • adding on to what iqbal siad. they are nuns that serve the world.
  • God modeled deacons through the disciples who were all men..
  • Look guys Can I please get this straight-

    Are deaconesses actually recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church? I have read in the one of St. Paul's epistles that this woman was a deaconess. But I can't remember her name.
  • Are deaconesses actually recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church?


    Yes, they are.
  • it was St.Febi that was the deaconess that stPaul was talking about.
  • It is the best thing in the world to serve God. Serving God could be in multiple ways and the church teaches us our rolls and responsibilities. For example like someone said Phoebe was serving St Paul, she even wrote down his some of his letters. Meanwhile, St. Paul himself said that the women’s voice should not be heard loud in the church, and for the women to cover her head. There were multiple women following Christ and they even were there at the cross, however his decibels were all men. God give each one of us the service that fits best. God just wants you to serve him in anyway you can while you follow the rules.
  • A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.

    "deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)

    St Paul teaches us also :
    "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (2 Tim 2: 11-12)



  • Just to be fully correct….

    "deacons" those we see ONLY serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...
    I think what you asking here is Deacons should do a lot more than only serving in the chorus and alter.
    Chanters (epsaltos) and readers (oghnostos) are surly Deacons.

  • [quote author=salsoul link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47396 date=1139349670]
    A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.

    "deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)


    you are rit, but there is still generla rules for deacons. and when i say deacons i mean ALL RANKS. let's not get in to the responsibilites of each rank. it would be like another big topic.
    it's like saying Clergy. Clergy means, Bishops (includes archbishops, metrobolitens, and normal bishops), Preists ( hegumens and normal preists), and deacons (chanters, archchanter (rarly granted for muallimin and mostly not granted anymore) readers, subdeacons, full deacons, and archdeacons.
    so you can't say that a chanter or a reader is not from the clergy. same with deacons. you can't diffir between a chanter and a reader except in their duties. i'll do a post about ALL the DUTIES soon.
  • wait... ??? who is saint fibi and where is she mentioned in the bible. sorry to ask over the original topic.
  • [quote author=salsoul link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47396 date=1139349670]
    A real deacon, is someone who is fully consacrated, just like a deaconess, they consacrate their lives fully to service, and live a celibate life.

    "deacons" those we see serving in the chorus or altar during services are not real deacons...they are only chanters (epsaltos) or readers (oghnostos)

    St Paul teaches us also :
    "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (2 Tim 2: 11-12)




    i know that this is off topic but does that mean that women are lower than men. ??? >:(
  • [quote author=MarMar91 link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47435 date=1139367582]
    nope, it just means that generally, like in marriage, the man is supposed to have the autority and be the head of all, but it also stresses equality saying that women came from man, but man comes from women..
    wait can you rephrase that i don't understand sorry :-\
  • [quote author=copticross link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47438 date=1139368953]
    [quote author=MarMar91 link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=15#msg47435 date=1139367582]
    nope, it just means that generally, like in marriage, the man is supposed to have the autority and be the head of all, but it also stresses equality saying that women came from man, but man comes from women..
    wait can you rephrase that i don't understand sorry :-\


    copticross , you don't have to understand anything.
    MarMar91,
    the verse that was given before was for marriage, but in the same time it is wrong for the whole topic we are speaking about right now.

    deacons' duty is to NOT HAVE ATHURITY over weman or anything. a deacon duty is to SERVE exactly like deaconesses. the only different is that they are higher in ranking. again, they do not have athurty in serving except if they were trusted with a specil service.

    Before i say anything about the duties of deaconesses, women in general are respected in our COC. They were never less or more than men. to prove that, St.Mary was a women and she is our highest saint and intercesser, and of coure the Theotokos, the mother of God. This doesn't make women higher than man but it just gives honor to women and also how our GOD was incarnate of a WOMAN.

    i think it's time to bring this topic to an end. to much confusion is going on. basicly it's (according to what i was taught):
    [glow=red,2,300]-: Back in time Deaconesses were either virgins, or widows who were over 60 yrs old.
    - They use to serve the Bishops and the preists in certain ways.
    - Deaconesses were succesful and they were recognized for their good deeds, manners, and good work.
    - First Deaconess was St. Tekla from Iconia who was consecrate by St. Paul himself.
    -: The consecration of Deaconess happends WITHOUT THE LAYING OF THE HANDS (BIG differnce between Deaconess and Deacons) after Matins of The Divine Liturgy.
    - There is two ranks of Deaconess, suddeaconess, and deaconess.
    - A subdeaconess is promote to be a deaconess atleast after 5 years of her consecration.
    [/glow]
    [center](All these information are Mostly from Fr. Tadros Yacoub teachings or H.G. Bishop Mettaos)[/center]

    Just to make it clear to everyone, Our Orthodox Church is a Solid Doctrine. Which means that if our doctrine says somthing, we shouldn't try to change or may be try to find a back door to get what we want OR mix our opinions with it. The Rules are the same that's why we are ORTHODOX which means Stay The Same.
    Heb 13:8 -
    [glow=red,2,300]Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. [/glow]
    And US, our rules, rites, and dogmas will to, FOREVER.

    I always think back of how kids are so obedient that if you just tell them what to do they would just do it. So lets just be obedient to Christ's Pride and our mother, THE CHURCH to guide us to the heavenly gain.

    i didin't mention anything about how deaconesses are different from deacons. i think we should learn the duties of a deacon first (with all the ranks) and than we can compare. :)
  • The part in the Bible about Phoebe: Romans 16: 1,2 where St. Paul calls Pheobe a "sister", an equal.

    minagir, where does it say that deacons are higher in ranking than deaconesses?

    Saint Mary, being human is the highest of all humans (excluding Jesus, since His "divinity parted not from His humanity", so although He was completely in human form, He is still God and above ALL). She is even above the Cherubim and Seraphim; she is Second in Heaven. She is The Second Heaven (ask me to explain if anyone doesn't understand). No other human has been able to attain such a rank as she was able to attain, and she is female. Not even David the king, whose heart God compared to His own, nor Saints John the Baptist or Beloved attained a rank as high as Saint Mary's. Think about that.

    Some may say that Jesus came in the form of a male, so males are higher. Although this is probably not the only reason why Jesus came as a male, it is still valid: If He had come as a female, do you think that anyone of that time period would have listened to Him?
  • [quote author=Gods kid link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=30#msg54029 date=1146788448]
    The part in the Bible about Phoebe: Romans 16: 1,2 where St. Paul calls Pheobe a "sister", an equal.

    minagir, where does it say that deacons are higher in ranking than deaconesses?


    Gods kid,
    in our cur COC we have ranks for everything. in clergy we have ranking. you have deacons, priests, Bishops in ranking from low to high. now with deacons, there is 5 or u can say 6 ranks. every one is HIGHER than the other one. deaconesses when they are ordainded, there is NO laying of hands. that's one thing. and also if you don't kno, a deacon is in fact higher in ranking than the other believers. and also about deaconesses, please read ALL the posts before about the diffrences between both deaconesses and deaocn.


    Saint Mary, being human is the highest of all humans (excluding Jesus, since His "divinity parted not from His humanity", so although He was completely in human form, He is still God and above ALL). She is even above the Cherubim and Seraphim; she is Second in Heaven. She is The Second Heaven (ask me to explain if anyone doesn't understand). No other human has been able to attain such a rank as she was able to attain, and she is female. Not even David the king, whose heart God compared to His own, nor Saints John the Baptist or Beloved attained a rank as high as Saint Mary's. Think about that.



    i don't see your point. YES ST. Mary is in fact the highest saint and human person that came from on earth. also she is my personal intercesser.
    She is The Second Heaven, yes, does that make ALL women second heavens for Christ.
    we say in the wednesday theotokeia:
    The Father looked from heaven, and found no one like you, He sent His only-begotten, who came and took flesh from you.
    so there is no one like St. Mary in heaven or on earth. the idea of including St. Mary's blessedness in this post does not support anything that have to do with deaconesses. may be women in general but it doesn't prove anything in the different ranking. basicly St. Mary just BLESSES first mankind in general, and than women. that's of course is differnt than what was she or what else she did for our salvation.

    PLEASE read the posts from before to know more about
    deaconesses.

    Some may say that Jesus came in the form of a male, so males are higher. Although this is probably not the only reason why Jesus came as a male, it is still valid: If He had come as a female, do you think that anyone of that time period would have listened to Him?


    am sorry, but people at that time didn't listen to Him anyway even with great uncountable mircles he did.

    God's Kid, if you have any more quesions, plese pm me.
  • u keep asking what's Gods kid point, but what i want to know is.... what's YOUR point?? ya3ny 3awez te2ol eh belzabt? en el regalah a3lah min el setat?? that deacons have greater faith than other believers? if that is your opinion, let me tell you my brother that KOL DAH KALAM FAREGH!!!!! you think God looks at what rank you have in the church?? God ONLY looks at a man's heart!
    guys, you can be deacons and chant songs and praises lel sob7 w'7esokoh yetnebe7, but if your hearts are not with God, and if you don't have good intentions, then kol dah.. fee el bye bye!!!
    all this goes down the drain. i am waiting for ur reply, minagir, cause i have more to say. however, i want you to CLARIFY your opinion... i really didn't understand ur point.
  • [quote author=filobateer link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=30#msg54038 date=1146799702]
    u keep asking what's Gods kid point, but what i want to know is.... what's YOUR point?? ya3ny 3awez te2ol eh belzabt? en el regalah a3lah min el setat?? that deacons have greater faith than other believers? if that is your opinion, let me tell you my brother that KOL DAH KALAM FAREGH!!!!! you think God looks at what rank you have in the church?? God ONLY looks at a man's heart!
    guys, you can be deacons and chant songs and praises lel sob7 w'7esokoh yetnebe7, but if your hearts are not with God, and if you don't have good intentions, then kol dah.. fee el bye bye!!!
    all this goes down the drain. i am waiting for ur reply, minagir, cause i have more to say. however, i want you to CLARIFY your opinion... i really didn't understand ur point.


    i don't have any point to make, i was just answering God's kid. he asked me why and i told him. and am not saying men are batter than women and you are right, God will not look at what rank you have in the church but he would look at your heart and also, he's the ONLY ONE who can. so let us who live on earth worry about the tradetion and rites our father (apostles gave us), and let God worry about our hearts latter in the second life. (or should i say let ourself be prepared).
  • aho ana ma3ak fee kalamak dah!!! :D :D
    aho dah el kalam el tamam!! ;D sa7 kidah! :)

    salam :)
  • [right]æ ÇäÊ ßÊ ÝÇßÑ Ãíå¿¿[/right]
  • alooooooooooo ya mante2ah??? earth to mina!! ;D
    feeh eh ya ged3an.... ana kol ely yekalemny yeftekerny wad walah eh?! :-\ deh el 7alah kidah edahwaret khales!!! ::)
    3al 3emom.... wad, wad.... mosh moshkelah. 3alah ra2y el masal.... 'samak, laban, tamr hendy!!' ;D ;D ;D
  • do u always have to write in arabic? can u please write in english...i dont undertand wat ur saying. I understand arabic, but not that.
  • i don't see your point. YES ST. Mary is in fact the highest saint and human person that came from on earth. also she is my personal intercesser.
    She is The Second Heaven, yes, does that make ALL women second heavens for Christ.
    the idea of including St. Mary's blessedness in this post does not support anything that have to do with deaconesses. may be women in general but it doesn't prove anything in the different ranking. basicly St. Mary just BLESSES first mankind in general, and than women. that's of course is differnt than what was she or what else she did for our salvation.



    Likewise, not ALL men, who have a rank in Church are righteous like the Jesus' disciples were. I was talking about looking down on women mainly. God exalted a woman above all humankind.
  • [

    Some may say that Jesus came in the form of a male, so males are higher. Although this is probably not the only reason why Jesus came as a male, it is still valid: If He had come as a female, do you think that anyone of that time period would have listened to Him?


    am sorry, but people at that time didn't listen to Him anyway even with great uncountable mircles he did.

    God's Kid, if you have any more quesions, plese pm me.



    Yes, many people at that time DID listen to Him. How do you think the Christians, or followers of Christ came about? If He had come in the form of a woman at that time, He have just been considered deranged and been completely ignored.

    What's "pm"-ing , as you suggested?
  • [quote author=minagir link=board=13;threadid=3161;start=30#msg54037 date=1146798306]
    Gods kid,
    in our cur COC we have ranks for everything. in clergy we have ranking. you have deacons, priests, Bishops in ranking from low to high. now with deacons, there is 5 or u can say 6 ranks. every one is HIGHER than the other one. deaconesses when they are ordainded, there is NO laying of hands. that's one thing. and also if you don't kno, a deacon is in fact higher in ranking than the other believers. and also about deaconesses, please read ALL the posts before about the diffrences between both deaconesses and deaocn.


    I agree with filobateer's post from May 4th 11:28.
  • [quote author=cop link=topic=3161.msg47183#msg47183 date=1139175094]
    ahah yes i live in california and the deaconess trend is catching on it was causing porblems in the begining but now i guess its ok


    There are deaconesses in Cali? as in serving in the alter and being in the chorus with the men deacons or are they doing something else like helping people or doing stuff in the church like Sunday school etc...
  • deacons (whether fully ordained deacons or simply cantors and readers) and deaconesses are part of the church. Both have the same goal spiritually but their service is a bit different. Definitely, the deacon's role is more liturgical than the deaconesses role but that doesn't mean the deacon's role is purely liturgical.

    Rather the fully ordained deacon is also meant to assist the priests during the liturgy, while both the ordained deacons and the cantors/readers etc are also called to serve in whatever capacity he is called to, whether it be amongst the youth or with the elderly or in admin purposes. In this regard, both the deacons and deaconesses have similar roles, which is basically pastoral work.

    Even though most 'deacons' are not truly 'full' deacons, those who are cantors or readers or sub deacons still need to serve the church in whatever way is needed. Both deacons and deaconesses are needed because the church has both men and women, boys and girls who also can relate more to men or more to women.

    Finally, going into the altar area has nothing to do with simply 'being a man' or not.  Even a male who has not been blessed/tonsured to serve at the altar is by no means given MORE allowance than a woman to enter the altar. It really upsets me when I see random men whom I know were never tonsured for altar service enter the altar to pray when the whole church is empty..I understand the desire for a personal time with God without others around but more respect for the altar is also necessary..and it starts with the clergy and the deacons (or 'deacons' in most cases).
  • Oh ok I understand. So they just have different rolls then the deacons. Got it but what’s different about deaconesses and servants that are women.
  • "Oh ok I understand. So they just have different rolls then the deacons. Got it but what’s different about deaconesses and servants that are women."

    The deaconesses are completely dedicated to serving God in their life. In fact, they are celibate which means they are unmarried like nuns (I think in most if not all cases) and they wear a special grey habit with a veil to distinguish their service. The lady servants in church can also get married, have families and children, careers etc.
  • oh ok thanks for explaining :)
  • [quote author=copticross link=topic=3161.msg47130#msg47130 date=1139119282]
    i know this is a wierd question, but why can only males be deacons? ???
                                                                                                                                                              the trend has changed these days mainly if you look in california  the new trends of females becoming deacons has  arrised
  • YES GIRLS CAN SURELY BE DEACONS AS THE TREND OF GIRLS BECOMING DEACONS IS GROWING POPULAR THESE DAYS AS IN CALIFORNIA IT IS VERY POPULAR TREND
  • [quote author=Graioner link=topic=3161.msg160025#msg160025 date=1348044338]
    YES GIRLS CAN SURELY BE DEACONS AS THE TREND OF GIRLS BECOMING DEACONS IS GROWING POPULAR THESE DAYS AS IN CALIFORNIA IT IS VERY POPULAR TREND


    This is an extremely ignorant comment. You should really know the reality of what you speak before making a public accusation which is patently false and inflammatory.

    God bless you.

    Fr. Kyrillos
  • I second Abouna's comment. Do your research, there is a vast difference between your conception of deaconess (which is presumably what you are speaking of) and 'girls being deacons'.

    HG Anba Serapion is a very well learned and wise bishop and of all the diocese to accuse of having 'girls become deacons', you picked a bad suspect.
  • deaconesses are female deacons but they dont actually serve abouna in a mass like a deacon. they are simply nuns that serve the world
  • [quote author=Timothym link=topic=3161.msg155833#msg155833 date=1337688162]
    The deaconesses are completely dedicated to serving God in their life. In fact, they are celibate which means they are unmarried like nuns (I think in most if not all cases) and they wear a special grey habit with a veil to distinguish their service. The lady servants in church can also get married, have families and children, careers etc.


    According to Timothym's reply and description of a deaconess, i found a picture of some deaconesses with HG Bishop Seraphim. I've seen them all the time, thinking they were nuns! These are them, right? I found out that the oldest looking deaconess in the photo was the first deaconess ordained by The Thrice Blessed H.H. Pope Shenouda III. It's actually really cool to see this :)
    http://britishorthodox.org/tag/coptic-orthodox/
  • HG Anba Serapion is a very well learned and wise bishop and of all the diocese to accuse of having 'girls become deacons', you picked a bad suspect.
  • Guys, God set aside specific jobs for everyone. Men have certain roles in the Church just as women do. One thing that deaconesses do is that they help Abouna baptize the elderly, especially women.
  • [quote author=JG link=topic=3161.msg47380#msg47380 date=1139338506]
    Look guys Can I please get this straight-

    Are deaconesses actually recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church? I have read in the one of St. Paul's epistles that this woman was a deaconess. But I can't remember her name.

    You're thinking of Phoebe in Romans 16:1. She was called διάκονον ("deacon" in the NIV version). Most Bible translations, including the NKJV we are accustomed to, translate διάκονον as "servant". While I believe the word should be deacon, one must be sure that the ecclesiastical clerical order we associate with the title "deacon" did not exist in St Paul's time. So when we say deacon in the Bible, it's not consecrated deacon, singer, or any other order. It was meant to mean a consecrated servant (one who gave up his/her job and livelihood to serve the Church and Christ).

    Deaconesses are recognized in the Coptic Church, but not as a clerical rank. The office of the deaconess is a non-clerical rank with different duties than their male counterpart.


Memorial for HH Pope Shenouda

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