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Psalm 116 Niethnos Tiro and Vesper Praises
  • Just wondering, can anyone explain the concept of Vespers praises? Like Niethnos. I thought we are supposed to say it at the beginning of Tasbeha. Also, can anyone tell me when and if they still say it in their church? I am trying to learn it so we can bring it back in my church. God Bless
  • Who said ni-ethnos tero is lost?! It is still the beginning of Vespers praise, followed by the Fourth Hoos, the Saints/Feast Psali and maybe the Days psali, the Day's Theotokia, the Commentary if there is one and finally the Conclusion of the Theotokia.
  • At my church it is lost haha. Mina can you explain what the vespers praise is though?  ??? Is it within Tasbeha or separate? We just have evening raising of incense (thanksgiving doxologies Gospel the litanies) then tasbeha at my church.
  • The Vespers Praise is prayed immediately before the Vespers Raising of Incense. Specifically, the order should be as follows (using an annual Saturday night as an example):

    - The Canonical Book of the Hours (agpia) should be completed through the 12th hour (typically on a Saturday, this will include 9th, 11th, and 12th hours. The Veil is also prayed in the monasteries).
    - After the conclusion of the Agpia, the 116th Psalm is said with its hymn (Ni-ethnos).
    - Fourth Canticle
    - Alleluia of the Vespers Praise
    - Saturday Psali Batos for the Virgin for the Vespers Praise
    - Saturday Psali Batos
    - Satruday Theotokia (Aretenthonti may be said in its long tune)
    - Sherat in the annual tune
    - The Antiphonarium
    - The Conclusion of the Batos Theotokias
    - The Lord's Prayer

    After this, the priest would open the veil of the altar and begin the Vespers Raising of Incense with "Eleyson Emas..." and the Lord's Prayer.

    Of course, the above is only for the annual season, and in the upcoming months of Kiahk, there are many more hymns and explanations to be said, and several of the tunes change. The basic structure, however, still applies.

    Hope this helps.
  • Thanks mzaki. We don't don't pray vesper praises in my church. Its really a shame. Thank you for clearing that up though! God Bless
  • Dear mzaki,
    I thought aradantondi in the long tune is reserved for Kiahk and the fasting days!
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14719.msg166522#msg166522 date=1384932020]
    Dear mzaki,
    I thought aradantondi in the long tune is reserved for Kiahk and the fasting days!
    Oujai

    [/quote]
    that is true. But cantors now say it can be said...along with Tenen, Hos erof elkebeira...etc
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14719.msg166522#msg166522 date=1384932020]
    Dear mzaki,
    I thought aradantondi in the long tune is reserved for Kiahk and the fasting days!
    Oujai

    [/quote]

    I have heard two teachings - one is, as you said, that it is reserved for the fasting days (I have also heard that Alleluia of the Vespers Praise should be reserved for the fasting days). The other, more recent teaching that I've heard, as Mina mentioned, is that these hymns can be said throughout the year, even in the annual days.

    I'm not sure which teaching is more correct. In any case, I included them above just for completeness sake.
  • I'm not sure these are valid arguments.. while I do love everything Coptic and repeating Coptic hymns so that they are pretty easily learnt I dislike the argument of 'it's a nice hymn why don't we say it throughout the year?' That doesn't sit right with me even if there won't be any alternative Coptic material to fill the time..
    Oujai
  • The question is, correct according to what criteria and what standards? If we are simply going off what cantors teach and are taught at cantor schools, then the common knowledge is that traditionally these hymns were reserved for Kiahk and Lent, while logically they can be said any time. That logical step was made at some point in recent years, and now more and more chanters are of the opinion that you can sing these hymns any time since 1- You already pray the prayers, it is simply a matter of a longer tune, and 2- More and more people are learning the hymns and would like a chance to pray them aside from the two mentioned seasons.

    If we are taking a more historical approach however, and look instead at our liturgical books and rubrics, it becomes more complicated. First of all, most liturgical manuscripts lack in rubrics to begin with, so there is no way to really claim that a certain melody was only chanted in Kiahk or Lent. A large number of surviving manuscripts from monasteries are small, hand held sized books copied for personal use by one person. To save space and ink, only the text of the prayer or hymn is copied without any directions. Even in our common printed Psalmodias such as Beni Suef and Nahdet AlKana'es you find the Saturday theotokia for example copied without any rubrics, such as "In Kiahk and Lent, sing the long melody of Aretenthonty". What complicates matters even more is that until the printing of liturgical books commenced in the late 19th cent, it is tough to categorize Psalmody manuscripts as Kiahk vs. Annual. Manuscripts don't have a title page or a printed cover. You simply have Psalmodies that include the basic tasbeha, and others that include extra Arabic songs, expositions and the like, but it is difficult to claim that a certain song or hymn is meant for a specific season in the absence of clear rubrics, based on the manuscript itself, and in the absence of a clear context for the prayer assigning it to a specific season.

    What I imagine happened is that the seasons that developed longer and more popular night vigils such as Kiahk and Lent afforded more opportunity to sing longer melodies and more songs. Especially in the case of Theotokia hymns, or long concluding Alleluias that can be sung much more easily in their shorter versions, I think these developed as solo performances by experienced chanters who wanted to extend the service and to provide the participants a chance to take a break from singing and standing. Over time, what was simply an observed practice developed into an artificial rule, canonizing and regularizing certain hymns for these more solemn and popular services.

    This always reminds me of Anton Baumstark's rules of liturgical evolution, spelled out in his classic Comparative Liturgy. The phenomenon of certain liturgical practices beginning as mere elaborations that can be said any time of year and then later becoming restricted to only certain hallowed seasons is something scholars since Baumstark have observed in every single liturgical tradition (Coptic, Syrian, Byzantine, Latin...etc.)

    Now, I am not arguing that we should sing these hymns all year long or that we should not. I am simply pointing out how these things sometimes develop, and that agreeing first on what are the criteria for correctness is very important and needs to be nuanced. In short, it is time in this day and age to stop looking merely at what cantor so and so teaches or taught, and start thinking more in terms of history and theology.
  • Very well said RamezM. I do feel that some cantors use their status to give them a carte blanche to canonizing certain teachings that not everybody agrees to. Another point is as you rightly say some practices varied between different parts of Egypt, but as the value of verbal tradition went down and down lack of titles and instructions made it seem like disorganised, when in fact it by no means is. That's why we have many well clued up people who keep clashing with many well clued up people.
    By the way there's no instruction I can remember to differentiate Khan owshowt yearly form Kiahkly, or that Danwah ensok has five versions..
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14719.msg166533#msg166533 date=1384990985]
    By the way there's no instruction I can remember to differentiate Khan owshowt yearly form Kiahkly, or that Danwah ensok has five versions..
    Oujai

    [/quote]

    If I'm not mistaken, M. Fahim in his complete recordings of the Midnight Praise does teach that the First Canticle Lobsh (Khen Oshot) does have distinct annual and Kiahk tunes.
  • Completely agreed mzaki, but I probably wasn't clear. What I meant is that there's no psalmody book that has this written as instructions, not even the so-called Kiahk psalmody..
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14719.msg166533#msg166533 date=1384990985]

    By the way there's no instruction I can remember to differentiate Khan owshowt yearly form Kiahkly, or that Danwah ensok has five versions..
    Oujai

    [/quote]
    I wanted to clarify something since you mentioned this. I don't believe that this tune: http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/Part_2/03.Khen_Oushot_Afshot.1461.mp3
    is a kiahky tune. The tune, not unique for the first hoos lobsh btw, has three ways, long, mohayyar and quick. The way Abouna Mettia is simply the mohayyar one. We always say the hetinni at the end of it in that tune.

    I'll go a step further and include the marenhoos tune which also has 3 ways and the mohayyar and quick tune are exactly like khen ooshot but not the long. The correct way of chanting any adam lobsh in a tasbeha depends on the season. If the season is a festive one, than ALL lobshes should be chanted in the marenhoos lobsh and all others are to be said in the Marenhoos tune. When i say all lobshes, i mean the first and second hoos lobshes should always be sung in the same tune.
  • Dear Mina,
    You mean marenwonh, right? I don't know the exact answer but it seems to me that the supplication verses towards the end aren't genuine in annual seasonal tune! I thought they were only borrowed in terms of the tune from Kiahk. Adam tunes are different to watos ones. I don't think there's any one where the rule applies of long, mohayer, and short; examples being: verses of cymbals, naknai (even if you count ebowro as different), bewaik, and ownowf..
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14719.msg166537#msg166537 date=1384995532]
    Dear Mina,
    You mean marenwonh, right? I don't know the exact answer but it seems to me that the supplication verses towards the end aren't genuine in annual seasonal tune! I thought they were only borrowed in terms of the tune from Kiahk.[/quote]
    show me a source other than Abouna Mettias that says that. I don't wanna call them annual hymns but they are Adam hymns that in general don't change as much as the watos. the Adam theotkias in kiahk or any fast do not change. their lobshes follow the tune of the 1st and 2nd hoos lobsh of that season, either festive or any other day.

    Adam tunes are different to watos ones. I don't think there's any one where the rule applies of long, mohayer, and short; examples being: verses of cymbals, naknai (even if you count ebowro as different), bewaik, and ownowf..

    I am not sure what are you talking about. yes, adam tunes are different than watos. having a long, mohayyar and a short tune doesn't break any known rule.
  • In regards to the antiphonarium.. what is difference between one said in vespers praise and one in midnight praise? I would guess the intro (tenoosht vespers, amoini midnight?) and then is the same one read for both?
  • Dear Mina,
    What I meant was Adam hymns don't follow the same arrangement as watos ones, they don't have the same structure as such.
    As for supplication verses in the lobshes I said that it seems to me, so that explains I have no references or proof.. but I'm not someone who's well learned, nor very fixated on sources, etc.. I try to meditate and find rules, and it works some of the time..
    Oujai
  • [quote author=Amdah link=topic=14719.msg166539#msg166539 date=1385016133]
    In regards to the antiphonarium.. what is difference between one said in vespers praise and one in midnight praise? I would guess the intro (tenoosht vespers, amoini midnight?) and then is the same one read for both?
    [/quote]
    It is not said in Vespers. Praise. Only Midnight. In kiahk, it's a special case because there is a commentary.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14719.msg166541#msg166541 date=1385018463]
    Dear Mina,
    What I meant was Adam hymns don't follow the same arrangement as watos ones, they don't have the same structure as such.
    As for supplication verses in the lobshes I said that it seems to me, so that explains I have no references or proof.. but I'm not someone who's well learned, nor very fixated on sources, etc.. I try to meditate and find rules, and it works some of the time..
    Oujai

    [/quote]
    which 'structure' are you talking about?
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14719.msg166542#msg166542 date=1385041684]
    [quote author=Amdah link=topic=14719.msg166539#msg166539 date=1385016133]
    In regards to the antiphonarium.. what is difference between one said in vespers praise and one in midnight praise? I would guess the intro (tenoosht vespers, amoini midnight?) and then is the same one read for both?
    [/quote]
    It is not said in Vespers. Praise. Only Midnight. In kiahk, it's a special case because there is a commentary.
    [/quote]

    I've been following this thread and wanted to respond to this question. The Antiphonarium is of course read in Vesper's praises after the appropriate introduction and before Adam or Batos conclusion. I am not sure where the sudden teaching appeared that it is reserved for midnight praises only came from? This so called 'update' recently appeared in the SUS Coptic Reader App and I emailed them straight away querying the source and teaching that same day, but until now have received no response. During Kiahk, Lent and the Holy 50 days there are commentaries which are to be read in the same position of the Vesper praises but only for Sundays. During Kiahk and Lent you can read the antiphonarium of the day after the general commentary but during the 50 days you do not as there is in turn no Synarium during Lordly Feasts.
  • [quote author=drewhalim link=topic=14719.msg166543#msg166543 date=1385050931]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14719.msg166542#msg166542 date=1385041684]
    [quote author=Amdah link=topic=14719.msg166539#msg166539 date=1385016133]
    In regards to the antiphonarium.. what is difference between one said in vespers praise and one in midnight praise? I would guess the intro (tenoosht vespers, amoini midnight?) and then is the same one read for both?
    [/quote]
    It is not said in Vespers. Praise. Only Midnight. In kiahk, it's a special case because there is a commentary.
    [/quote]

    I've been following this thread and wanted to respond to this question. The Antiphonarium is of course read in Vesper's praises after the appropriate introduction and before Adam or Batos conclusion. I am not sure where the sudden teaching appeared that it is reserved for midnight praises only came from? This so called 'update' recently appeared in the SUS Coptic Reader App and I emailed them straight away querying the source and teaching that same day, but until now have received no response. During Kiahk, Lent and the Holy 50 days there are commentaries which are to be read in the same position of the Vesper praises but only for Sundays. During Kiahk and Lent you can read the antiphonarium of the day after the general commentary but during the 50 days you do not as there is in turn no Synarium during Lordly Feasts.
    [/quote]
    i do have to say that the update to Coptic Reader is the one that kind of reminded me of this....so here is what i have found in some books:
    -In Anba Mettaous Rites book, it is mentioned to say the difnar only in Midnight Praise.
    -In Nahdet elkanayes annual psalmody, my book is 10th ed 1995, doesn't say anything about the difnar in vespers praise and but does mention it to be said in midnight praise (both accounts in the same page int he book).
    -In the Baramous Annual Psalmody, 2nd ed, 2003, it says you can say the difnar of the current day, not the next, in vespers praise.
    -In the latest Sourian Kiahk Psalmody, the difnar is not mentioned at all after the commentaries of the weeks.
    Ramez and Remenkimi maybe include other older sources i have no access to.


  • I cannot comment for Egypt as a whole but definitely not the general teaching in Cairo. I was taught for many years (and still) but a number of Cantors in Cairo, some who teach in Didymus and the Clerical College, and we always read the Difnar of the day in Vespers praises and the saint of the following day during Midnight praises. Definitely a question I shall inquire about further.
  • Dear Mina,
    I referred to the structure pointing to long tune, mohayer, short tune. Such a structure is not a characteristic of Adam tunes
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14719.msg166554#msg166554 date=1385073336]
    Dear Mina,
    I referred to the structure pointing to long tune, mohayer, short tune. Such a structure is not a characteristic of Adam tunes
    Oujai

    [/quote]
    I never thought about that being a restriction for watos hymns.
  • Sorry to resurrect this thread but can we pray Niethnos Tiro before the fourth Hos in Tasbeha because we don't pray vespers praises at my church?
  • I think this is what you ar trying to ask: is it ok to pray ni-ethnos teeroo in midnight praise instead off vespers?
    if so, than the answer a clear No. 
  • it's only said before vespers praises and in other particular occasions (like in the begging of prayer when a Bishop, Priest, Deacon death, ....etc)
    and there's two types of it: Annual and Joyful
  • @meensasami....joyful ni-ethnos teeroo? a source please...
  • Aww man. Maybe I'll just come early before vespers and youth meeting to pray vespers praises with anyone I can convince to join me.
    Pray for me! and @meensasamy a link/download for a joyful tune would awesome
  • @minatasgeel  
    I Uploaded it. who says it his name is "Father Abraam El-Abnouby".
    Link: Here
    Pray For me Too
  • Wow, I've never heard of this joyful Ni-ethnos. 

    @meensasamy, thank you for sharing this recording. Do you have any idea from whose teaching Fr. Abraam El-Abanouby received this hymn?
  • Muallem Gad mentioned in a recent interview that he has heard of this hymn but has not received it. After listening to this recording, i am very skeptical of this hymn as it doesnt seem to make much musical sense lol but it was a worth a listen
  • I have heard this being mentioned before...but never gave it attention. The fact that it has pieces ya kol al sofoof, pavlos elfarayhi,annual paralex, arihoo chasf, ekhrestos anisti, the annual niethnos teeroo, and prob others, all of this makes me VERY suspicious. @meensasamy, please provide more details about that recording and priest.

  • @minazaki @christ_rose @minatasgeel
    Unfortunately I have no available information about the source and I don't have another source except it.
    Maybe it's like many hymns we didn't have like "O-Oniatk,........etc".
    I can't confirm exactly.
  • I wouldn't compare o-oniatk to this. This hymns sounds much more recent than o-oniatk (despite all thoughts i have about o-oniatk). 
  • @meensasamy
    In any case, thank you very much for sharing this recording. Personally, I will be filing this away as "needs more research" for the time being.
  • @Minatasgeel I think the issue isnt the fact that it has pieces of all those hymns but rather that it flows in and out of the original tune of niethnos teero and then has transitions that dont match. Many hymns have this many pieces of other hymns but they fit musically in any case. This one is very very random and really cant be followed easily. I also agree that Oouniatk is very different. 


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