Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Feast of the Cross
  • I wanna ask a question about the feast of the Cross

    2. There are two Adam Doxologies "Evol hiten eb esnof" & "Amoini tirou nipistos" that are written in the book "Church Rite" or "Tartib El-Bai3a" in the Pages (70,71,72,73) and the book says that they are said before the Exposition or "Commentary".

    My questions about this part are:
    1- What is the tune of these Adam Doxologies?
    2- Where do we say them exactly ?

    Because I have never heard any one of the Cantors say them and there are no records for them.

    Thank You
  • Alright before I try and give what I think about it, I have a question for you. I always wanted a copy of "Tarteeb el ba3ia," where did you get yours from? Is it  a computer file? That would be a lot more convenient to have then 4 Books.

    Okay,


    There are two types of  doxologies, watos doxologies which are chanted during Vespers and Matins and Adam Doxologies chanted during the Glorification service in the tune of "Esalmoo laki ya mariam" or the madeyeh for the saints in arabic. I am not sure if it is the same tune for it during the Feast or if the tune changes, but that is all I know about these Adam doxologies.
    Is the rite you are reading for Vespers and Matins after the procession or during Tasbeha? But I think the answer to your second question is in your post. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can help us both out.

    God Bless
  • [quote author=Faithfull Servant 1 link=topic=14630.msg166038#msg166038 date=1379853550]
    Alright before I try and give what I think about it, I have a question for you. I always wanted a copy of "Tarteeb el ba3ia," where did you get yours from? Is it  a computer file? That would be a lot more convenient to have then 4 Books.

    Okay,



    First, Thank you for your reply

    I have a copy on a computer file on 3 parts as PDFs
    They are scanned from the Original Book
    Here are the links
    First Part (Thout, Paopi & Hathor) (Handwriting) 13.1 MB
    Second Part (Kiahk, Tobi & Meshir) (Printed) 34.7 MB
    Third Part (Lent, Holy 50, Paramhat to Nasi) (Printed) 43.9 MB
    All book is about 91.8 MB. It's very useful & amazing book.

    [quote author=Faithfull Servant 1 link=topic=14630.msg166038#msg166038 date=1379853550]
    There are two types of  doxologies, watos doxologies which are chanted during Vespers and Matins and Adam Doxologies chanted during the Glorification service in the tune of "Esalmoo laki ya mariam" or the madeyeh for the saints in arabic. I am not sure if it is the same tune for it during the Feast or if the tune changes, but that is all I know about these Adam doxologies.


    I know this part but as you said for the Glorification Service. I think it looks like "Tamageed" tune as you said because I never heard another tune for adam doxologies except this tune But there are 4 points here:

    1. Possibility to be said at the tune of "Tamageed". (May be 50%)
    2. Possibility to be said at the tune of "Shaanini" because Cantor Ibrahim Ayad said we can "Madeha" of the cross (which is said as the tune of the feast) after hymn "Etaf Enni Eskhai" and before the Exposition or "Commentary" in the procession of Vespers and Matins if we need much time so maybe they are the same tune. (Not sure)
    3. I searched most books related to the feast of the cross and the important one is "Dawret Eeday El-saleb w El-shaanin w Trohat Elsoom Elkbeer w El-khmassen 1958" or (The Procession of the two feasts of the cross and Palm Day and Great Lent and Ressurection Expsoitions 1958)  and I can't find these anywhere in any book except in "Tarteb El-baiaa". !!
    4. Maybe they are said in separate glorification service after vespers or matins!! (Not sure)

    [quote author=Faithfull Servant 1 link=topic=14630.msg166038#msg166038 date=1379853550]
    Is the rite you are reading for Vespers and Matins after the procession or during Tasbeha? But I think the answer to your second question is in your post. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can help us both out.

    God Bless


    It is written after the Matins Gospel Response then it's written they say the order is:
    1- Two Adam Doxologies
    2- Coptic Exposition or "Commentary" then Arabic.
    2- Then hymn "Epouro".
    3- Then the quarter "before the last" of the the Cross Watos Doxology at the feast tune called"je `f`cmarwout `nje pikhrstos pennouti".
    4- Then "Etaf Enni Eskhai".
    Then Conclusion Canon for Vespers & Matins.

    If I notice this, it looks like the order of old glorification service system that make my suspicion get more percentage about my possibility of number 1 "Tamageed".

    God Bless
  • It is written after the Matins Gospel Response then it's written they say the order is:
    1- Two Adam Doxologies
    2- Coptic Exposition or "Commentary" then Arabic.
    2- Then hymn "Epouro".
    3- Then the quarter "before the last" of the the Cross Watos Doxology at the feast tune called"je `f`cmarwout `nje pikhrstos pennouti".
    4- Then "Etaf Enni Eskhai".
    Then Conclusion Canon for Vespers & Matins

    .

    You are right, that is very close to a Glorification service  especially since it is after the Gospel because the procession is after Efnooty Nai Nan so I don't believe it would be in the shanini tune. Maybe it is the Epooro tune because the Adam Doxologies might be for King Constantine and Queen Helen and they might of done a Tamgeed for them on this Feast, which again I'm not sure off because it is to be treated like a Lordly Feast and like other Lordly Feats we do not celebrate saints on them, but these saints are big part of it and the Hymn Etaven Nieskhai is about King Constantine so this might be an exception... but I'm just speculating... A good person to ask would be mlm. Albeir Mikhail from HCOC, he is really good with everything there is about anything to do with the church.

    God Bless
  • You think right about the glorification
    I can't reach him but if you can, it will be great and let us know

    Thank you again
    Pray for me
  • An update
    I have found a record for these Adam Doxologies which They are said as the tune of Adam Morning Doxology in Morning Tasbeha.

    Thank Jesus

    I have another question about the feast of the cross, what are the tune of Adam Exposition of the feast of the cross?
    Some say like tune of Watos Exposition (like in Shaanini) and a record says like (Chi ouwini) as Joyful Adam Exposition Intro... little confused ???
  • [quote author=Sem Sem link=topic=14630.msg166049#msg166049 date=1379956086]
    I have another question about the feast of the cross, what are the tune of Adam Exposition of the feast of the cross?
    Some say like tune of Watos Exposition (like in Shaanini) and a record says like (Chi ouwini) as Joyful Adam Exposition Intro... little confused ???

    It's said like Palm Sunday commentary, "Mashenak"
  • Thank you minatasgeel
    I think that too but this record made me doubt what the right one is and no books say that so I wanted to make sure.

  • does anyone know where i can actually get the book of tarteeb el bay3a?
  • [quote author=dg920 link=topic=14630.msg166058#msg166058 date=1379997150]
    does anyone know where i can actually get the book of tarteeb el bay3a?

    Sem Sem post below (or above as you may see it different on your page)
  • A little off topic but I'm curious,

    How many people or churches are actually using the verses (whether doxologies, aspasmoses and canons) found in Tartib al bay3a?

    I know Ibrahim Ayad and the chorus used it some of the Wednesday vespers for Pope Tawadros' weekly sermon (especially Tut 2 for St John the Baptist). Are others following the same practice?

    I'm not sure it should be used. There are quite a few untranslated verses and some of the translations do not seem appropriate.

  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=14630.msg166061#msg166061 date=1380044184]
    A little off topic but I'm curious,

    How many people or churches are actually using the verses (whether doxologies, aspasmoses and canons) found in Tartib al bay3a?

    I know Ibrahim Ayad and the chorus used it some of the Wednesday vespers for Pope Tawadros' weekly sermon (especially Tut 2 for St John the Baptist). Are others following the same practice?

    I'm not sure it should be used. There are quite a few untranslated verses and some of the translations do not seem appropriate.

    I don't think much do except if they maybe included in Albair's book or nahdet elkanayes books (which means it might be included in the new southern diocease khidmit shamas). or of course, if it is recorded. but when it is recorded, and someone decided to put together the words from the audio, it doesn't always come out right. I have friends who have done that.
  • Theoretically, if it is in Albair's book or Nahdet alkanays books, then it was approved by the Synod committee. But Tartib adds a lot of additions. When I saw Ibrahim Ayad sing it in vespers of St John the Baptist, I wondered if people had picked up this "new" trend.

    A few people and I (most were fluent in Arabic) had trouble picking up text from audio when the hymn was Arabic. I can only imagine how ungrammatical the result would be if trying to transcribe Tartib's Coptic by people know very little Coptic (myself included). Much of Tartib's text has a fairly good amount of "Bohairicized" Sahidic Coptic (ie, neither Sahidic nor Bohairic), a type of atypical bilingualism. Hymns like Thomas pasotp and Apetjeek evol are good examples.

    I'm not sure it's a good idea to "resurrect" Tartib's texts, like Ibrahim Ayad did. I wonder what others think.

  • I think its difficult to generalize. If what he uses is good why not? There can be good and beautiful texts and some messed up ones. We should take the good and leave out the bad to the best of our ability.

    Also I meant the actual book like in my hand
  • An Update:

    I've asked Deacon Albier Gamal about our discussion.
    1-He declared that the two Adam Doxologies "Evol hiten eb esnof" & "Amoini tirou nipistos" are said like Made7et (Alslamo Laky Ya Mariam).
    2-The Adam & Watos Exposition are like each other in (Shaanini Way) like "Mashenak".

  • happy feast of the cross, guys!
    :)
  • [quote author=Sem Sem link=topic=14630.msg166082#msg166082 date=1380194971]
    An Update:

    I've asked Deacon Albier Gamal about our discussion.
    1-He declared that the two Adam Doxologies "Evol hiten eb esnof" & "Amoini tirou nipistos" are said like Made7et (Alslamo Laky Ya Mariam).
    2-The Adam & Watos Exposition are like each other in (Shaanini Way) like "Mashenak".




    dear sem sem,
    I'm sorry but how on earth is an Adam and a watos pieces sung on the same tune. We're so kidding these days, aren't we? I'm not going to say anymore
    Oujai
  • Happy feast of the Cross to you too mabsoota.
    Oujai


  • dear sem sem,
    I'm sorry but how on earth is an Adam and a watos pieces sung on the same tune. We're so kidding these days, aren't we? I'm not going to say anymore
    Oujai



    I don't see what the issue is? On all other festal days all commentaries/expositions are in the tune Tar7 el fa3la. The feast of the cross borrows all it's hymnology from Palm Sunday (sha3neen) and therefore for this feast there is a unique tune for commentaries.

    On your average day Batos and Adam do not mix but there are clearly exceptions to the rule.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14630.msg166086#msg166086 date=1380257460]
    [quote author=Sem Sem link=topic=14630.msg166082#msg166082 date=1380194971]
    An Update:

    I've asked Deacon Albier Gamal about our discussion.
    1-He declared that the two Adam Doxologies "Evol hiten eb esnof" & "Amoini tirou nipistos" are said like Made7et (Alslamo Laky Ya Mariam).
    2-The Adam & Watos Exposition are like each other in (Shaanini Way) like "Mashenak".




    dear sem sem,
    I'm sorry but how on earth is an Adam and a watos pieces sung on the same tune. We're so kidding these days, aren't we? I'm not going to say anymore
    Oujai


    I think we are failing to be objective when we are talking about this. Let's concentrate on the Difnar and Commentaries readings. in general, tunes of different occasions HAVE BEEN LOST!!! also, if there is a commentary, the difnar after follows the same tune. We regained some of the tunes (like the short annual adam that was recorded and then i believe someone shortened it and made up a watos of that version--i might be wrong because i haven't really heard a source for the watos). In kiahk, the long watos is recorded and tarh el-fa3ala. Considering that lent have many of the hymns from kiahk, a short version of the kiahk watos tarh was taking to be the watos tarh of lent....but we don't know what is the tune for the adam in lent. Chi-o-oinee is not really a newly discovered tune or unique. It is basically just tarh elfa3ala but when M Fahim recorded, he did the short way, not the long intro....and both, are Adam.

    For the feast of the cross, and Palm sunday, Mashenak is really a Watos tarh. The tune is a watos. Also, i have only heard M Fahim as a source for it. Any one else an older recording or of a cantor around the same age?
  • That's right, Mashenak is watos. I'm not one for making up tunes. If a tune is lost, it's lost. But to revive it willy nilly? I don't know. I disagree drewhalim, there are no exceptions. It's basic, easy, and straightforward. The structure of the poetry or the prose is different for watos and Adam, and consequently, or even irrespectively, the tunes
    Oujai
  • I can think of two very clear exceptions where the commentary tune remains the same being festal periods and also the Pascha week (hazaeny) which does not attempt to differentiate between Batos and Adam. You cannot therefore say there are no exceptions.

    If the Adam commentary is not in the tune of Mashenak which I reiterate is a unique hymn for the Sha3neen ritual then what tune is it Tar7 el fa3la/ Chiouoini?
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14630.msg166102#msg166102 date=1380488673]
    Watos

    tar7 elfa3ala is an adam tune. Mashenak is watos. both commentaries are clearly titled in the book.

    Andrew, I really don't think using the holy week commentaries as an example. the entire week and its rite and tunes are unique in every way.
  • Oops my mistake. Every word agreed Mina. Thanks for correcting me
    Oujai
  • I was just stating that there are periods of 'uniqueness' which are exceptions 

    still begs the question what is the tune for Adam commentaries for the Feasts of the Cross and Palm Sunday? Source?
  • [quote author=drewhalim link=topic=14630.msg166109#msg166109 date=1380527908]
    I was just stating that there are periods of 'uniqueness' which are exceptions 

    still begs the question what is the tune for Adam commentaries for the Feasts of the Cross and Palm Sunday? Source?

    Have you seen a coptic text for those?!


Memorial for HH Pope Shenouda

Share |