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His Grace Bishop Mina (concerning Copts in Canada)
  • Beloved spiritual Sisters and brothers in christ,

    Our holy father His Holliness Pope Tawadros, with the unanimous consent of the metropolitans, bishops, and the 2 hegumens of the holy synod have unanimously consented for the arrival of His Grace Bishop Mina to be a diocean bishop for all of Canada abroad. This is a great blessing, as it will the first official archdioceses of Canada. It will also be the first diocese to be formed under the care and guidance of our Holy father His Holiness Pope Tawadros the second. We shall all be happy and rejoiceful. I request that all my Canadian coptic sisters and brothers to stay away from the political aspects of the church, since the church is spiritual institution, and one that is not political (HE Metropolitan Bachomious). Please pass the word. His grace will be ordained on Sunday March 10, 2013 in the Abbesaiya Cathedral of Anba Ruwies.
    As has been stated, His Grace will have two metropolis maqars, or bishopric center, one in Western Canada, and the other on the east coast.
    Pray for my weakness and glory be to God forever amen
  • Thank you for the information. This seems like a rather large geographical area to lead. Is he over all of Canada for now and will then be appointed a smaller geographical area once other bishops are appointed over smaller jurisdictions?

  • Canada has about 50 churches, which would make Canada a decent sized diocese in terms of number of churches.

    Anba Mina has the Canadian passport and has been connected in rumors to variable assignment within Canada. Is anything confirmed yet by the Synod by an official communication?

    Did they find a replacement for Anba Mina for his current diocese of Old Egypt? Abona Raphael has repeatedly declined the post of Bishop of Old Egypt and the episcopal rank in general, and it would be strange to vacate a diocese of her bishop without proper backup plans for the diocese.

    On a side note, Anba Mina will be transferred and seated, and not ordained.
  • Thank you Starvro, which church are you from?
    Our senior priest(I want mention who, stated a confirmation for his installment).

    As for Old Cairo, this is a general bishopric, and a replacement can be easily made
  • [quote author=guy link=topic=14273.msg163372#msg163372 date=1361158468]
    Thank you Starvro, which church are you from?
    Our senior priest(I want mention who, stated a confirmation for his installment).

    As for Old Cairo, this is a general bishopric, and a replacement can be easily made
    [/quote]

    Anba Mina must have a task to do there. He must be providing some kind of guidance that will be missed if he leaves without a replacement. I hope his position is not redundant.

    In any case, there were many rumors surrounding Canada lately. Let us just wait and see. 
  • I heard HH is also forming more dioceses in the US and seating Bishops that day also. Does anyone know if this is true and if it is who will be seated where?
  • Is there any word on any other dioceses in North America (Northeast USA, Midwest USA, etc)?
  • Why can't we just WAIT and see?!
  • Minatasgeel,

    Not sure what the purpose of your response is. Why are you so irritated that somebody is asking if a decision has been made regarding any other dioceses?

    Rather than come back with preachy, unnecessary responses that serve no purpose why not defer the question to someone who is simply able to answer yes or no?
  • [quote author=Mgabby1234 link=topic=14273.msg163386#msg163386 date=1361214249]
    Minatasgeel,

    Not sure what the purpose of your response is. Why are you so irritated that somebody is asking if a decision has been made regarding any other dioceses?

    Rather than come back with preachy, unnecessary responses that serve no purpose why not defer the question to someone who is simply able to answer yes or no?
    [/quote]
    Mgabby,
    First, my response wasn't necessarily towards your question. It was towards the whole thread.
    Second, I am not irritated of anyone...i just believe that leaving things to be is the best action to do as I know that there aren't any sources on the forum that would announce actual news other than 'i heard this from that person or that bishop'
  • Most likely His Grace Bishop Micheal will be seated as the bishop of Virginia and Pensilvania. He has over 80% approval from a priest I spoke to.
  • [quote author=guy link=topic=14273.msg163393#msg163393 date=1361231377]
    Most likely His Grace Bishop Micheal will be seated as the bishop of Virginia and Pensilvania. He has over 80% approval from a priest I spoke to.
    [/quote]
    This doesn't make sense. Bishop Michael is already bishop of the Suffrage diocese of Alexandria and all of Virginia, which is suffragan to the Archdiocese of North America, which is officially under the Pope Tawadros as Metropolitan of the Archdiocese of North America.

    It's like saying Bishop Raphael, who is already "Assistant Bishop for Central Cairo and the Suffragan Holy Diocese of Heliopolis and of Central Cairo (Down Town) in the Holy Archdiocese of Cairo", is going to be seated as the bishop of Heliopolis. Heliopolis and Cairo are already under the direct diocese belonging to the Patriarch, as is North America and by default Virginia.

    Did you mean Virginia is going to become a separate (fixed) diocese like the Southern USA or Southern California with Bishop Michael moving from general bishop (suffragan bishop) to diocese bishop? 
  • Yes, it will become a diocesess, ya suffrogan man.
  • [quote author=guy link=topic=14273.msg163399#msg163399 date=1361257657]
    Yes, it will become a diocesess, ya suffrogan man.
    [/quote]
    I didn't make up the word suffragan. It's just English, not super powers.

    And is "diocesess" the female equivalent of "diocese", like "deaconess" is the female equivalent of "deacon"?  ;)

    Just kidding. I'm messing with you.
  • Any sources? :)
  • Any word on NJ or NY...lol

    I live here and yet I hear nothing
  • Rabina ye samhek ya Reminikininini
  • I believe that Bishop David should become a diocesean bishop of New Jersey, and another bishop should be appointed for New York. Any thoughts. Also another bishop can take over Borton and Connecuit, Rhode Island, Vermont etc.
  • This is EXACTLY what i am talking about. now we are just sharing opinions which maybe in two days will become rumors....
  • [quote author=guy link=topic=14273.msg163413#msg163413 date=1361312019]
    I believe that Bishop David should become a diocesean bishop of New Jersey, and another bishop should be appointed for New York. Any thoughts. Also another bishop can take over Borton and Connecuit, Rhode Island, Vermont etc.
    [/quote]
    Since I live in "Borton", I feel it's my duty to use my super powers again. But this time in Coptic. e;be hwb niben ettaiyout arihmot ws `mpek`cqai `nhamys `ncop

    And since we are starting rumors here, guy will be ordained bishop of Borton.
  • I am unworth Remininininki
  • According to a facebook page for Pope Tawadros news (i dont think its affiliated with him):

    الانبا غبريال : الأحد رسامة 7 أساقفة جدد وتجليس 4 أساقفة علي إيبارشيات

    أكد نيافه الأنبا غبريال أسقف بني سويف أن قداسة البابا تواضروس الثاني سيقوم يوم الأحد القادم برسامة 7 أساقفة جدد وتجليس 4 أساقفة علي ايبارشيات حيث سيتم رسامة
    أبونا إبيفانيوس المقاري أسقف لدير أبو مقار
    وأبونا مقار البراموسي لايبارشية مراكز الشرقية
    وأبونا يوليوس افامينا لمنطقة مصر القديمة
    أبونا صليب الصموئيلي لايبارشية طموة وتوابعها( البدرشين والحوامدية )
    وأبونا زكريا السورياني لايبارشية أكتوبر واشمون
    وأبونا يؤانس السرياني لايبارشية إمبابة والوراق
    وأبونا زوسيما الانطوني لايبارشية اطفيح والصف
    كما سيتم تجليس أربعة من الإباء الأساقفة
    حيث يتم تجليس الأنبا دانيال علي ايبارشية المعادي
    والأنبا ثؤدسيوس علي ايبارشية الجيزة نفسها
    والأنبا بطرس علي ايبارشية شبين القناطر
    والأنبا مينا علي مسيسوجا وبان كوبر بكندا

    جرجس وهيب-بني سويف

    Basically saying that HH will ordain 7 new bishops and seat 4 bishops to a diocese. All of the Bishops are for Egypt except for Bishop Mina for Canada. 
  • Bishop Gabriel is already the diocean bishop of Beni Suef???
  • Any word about Bishop Micheal and the diocess of Virginia??
  • I apologize, I misread that.
  • According to Anba Gabriel, Bishop Mina to be seated in Canada for Mississauga and Vancouver only. These are not geographically connected cities and are about 4500 km apart.

    Will he be ordained for the Wild West from Mississauga to Vancouver, or just for these two cities?

    What about the rest of the Greater Toronto Area (GTA)? It seems that they divided Canada from the airport in Toronto and there is an intention to separate Mississauga from the rest of the GTA churches.   
  • Stavro, what's been said is that H.G Anba Mina will be Mississauga and everything west of that up to and including Vancouver. He's not just Mississauga & Vancouver.

    West of Mississauga would be Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Brampton and all cities extending to Vancouver.

    As to why Mississauga has been separated from the rest of the GTA, from what's been said, is that the cluster of churches in the GTA that includes Mississauga is simply to burdensome for one bishop. So they divided this cluster in half enjoining Vancouver with it, while Toronto, Quebec and the rest of the Maritimes will get their Bishops in the near future, God willing.

    This is what I've heard so I'm not supporting or protesting those decisions. I as well am curious as to why such a grand parish with thousands of kms in between would be formed. But really Vancouver and the west, from what I've heard, only  have 5 churches and 6 priests.
    Lets pray for H.G Anba Mina and his new service and offer our support and prayers contineously for this new Bishops.

    Does anyone know about Anba David or Anba Michael and if they'll be seated?
  • Hi Orthodoxy,

    thank you for your comment and the clarification.

    It makes more sense to have a diocese from Mississauga to Vancouver. However, Anba Gabriel is quoted to have said that Anba Mina will be only responsible for the two cities.

    The number of the churches in Canada does not exceed 50 churches, a very average sized dioscese if compared with Giza, for example, which had 100 churches under on Metropolitan on a wheelchair, Anba Domadius, and the service did not suffer. In fact, it flourished. You could have one bishop oversee Canada for now.

    The GTA has less than 20 churches, Sauga and Brampton included, and it needs a bishop.
  • Hi Stavro,

    I agree that the GTA is small relative to other dioceses but keeping in mind the heavy finances, and the fact that churches in the GTA, let alone Canada, have been without a bishop since their inception 4 decades ago, it makes the situations in those churches all the more challenging/complicated. They also operate in different ways and perhaps a bishop wouldn't have been able to reconcile both styles of operation without there being problems.

    It's not just about the # of churches or families but numerous other factors, too.
    I do agree with you that the GTA needs a bishop more urgently while Vancouver can afford to wait due to its smaller size. But that was the blueprint drawn up by bishops & priests and presented to the Pope.

    Keep in mind Pope Tawadrous, years ago I believe, was involved in the delegation sent to Australia to try and fix the problems with Anba Danial. Perhaps he foresaw something similar on the horizon from the large churches in the GTA and chose to avoid clustering all the powerhouses together. I'm just offering guesses.
    The point I'm trying to elucidate is that there are many a factor which came into play before this decision was made. I believe God has a plan and while it may seem illogical to us, unity certainly has no boundaries or restrictions on Miles.
    I do agree with you, though, that the GTA needs a bishop, but I have no doubt he'll be appointed in the near future.

    Anywho, we pray and may God's name be glorified.
  • [quote author=qawe link=topic=14273.msg163670#msg163670 date=1362619788]
    Stavro, you give the example of Giza: that is about to be subdivided because it is too big.
    @Orthodoxy: Anba Tawadros went to Sydney less than a year ago (not a long time ago) for this purpose, and I agree with you about all your reasons why dioceses in the West are more burdensome.  However, the problems in Sydney are deeper than it merely being different from the dioceses of Egypt, and a wiser bishop in Canada will probably not encounter the same issues.
    [/quote]

    Agreed, thanks for the clarification.
  • Stavro, you give the example of Giza: that is about to be subdivided because it is too big.


    Too big for the Spirit?

    If a paralyzed metropolitan, who has lost the ability to take care of himself let alone a diverse diocese, was able to let the Spirit work miracles through his weakness, then I think a fit bishop should have no excuse. Anba Domadius was a write-off by human standards. In his early years, he was the strongest character in the Church, and HE served the flock of Christ in Giza with success. When he was paralyzed due to a stroke, his service became even more successful.

    It is the Spirit, and not the managerial abilities of the bishop that makes a difference.

    Giza was divided to avoid having a bishop with some authority because of the size of his diocese.

    eep in mind Pope Tawadrous, years ago I believe, was involved in the delegation sent to Australia to try and fix the problems with Anba Danial. Perhaps he foresaw something similar on the horizon from the large churches in the GTA and chose to avoid clustering all the powerhouses together.


    Australia is a prime example of the total absence of leadership which would handle the powerhouses efficiently.

    I agree that the GTA is small relative to other dioceses but keeping in mind the heavy finances, and the fact that churches in the GTA, let alone Canada, have been without a bishop since their inception 4 decades ago, it makes the situations in those churches all the more challenging/complicated.


    Ordain a saintly celibate man as a bishop and everything will be fine. Give a humble man the Spirit through the laying of hands and it will be turned around no matter what giants he is dealing with.

    Let us remember that when Pope Kyrillos was ordained, he was surrounded by heavily corrupted bishops. They plotted to strip him him of his rank. They were all killed, 12 bishops in one year, by the mighty hand of God who delivered his saint from their conspiracies. It just needs a saint, not a manager. 
  • [quote author=qawe link=topic=14273.msg163677#msg163677 date=1362637734]
    My understanding is that there are bigger problems than just "total absence of leadership".  I presume you are referring to the Diocese of Sydney, not the Diocese of Melbourne.
    [/quote]
    Please don't get into any of those problems...
  • Yet, on the other hand, if the bishops are diocesan, this will decrease the authority of the Pope + general bishops in the Synod, which is a good thing.


    When a bishop is responsible for 5 churches, he is really a khori epscopos or a senior hegomen at best. This does not provide him with any influence.

    Also, I do not think the "type" of bishops matters. In our age, any bishop, whether he is of the general, diocesan or floating type, can be moved around between dioceses, suspended from service, returned after suspension, allowed to take a leave of absence or even resign. 

    The relation between the bishop and his flock is not considered anymore an eternal relation that is only broken by death or adultery, spiritual (heresy) or physical. The bishop is no more than a manager of a certain area.

    As for the ratio of bishop / churches:

    By the end of the 7th century, after 200 years of cruel and barbarian persecution by the Chalcedonians, followed by the brutality of the arab invasion, the churches in Egypt were estimated at 15,000 according to Abo El-Makarem Saad Ibn Gerges (Coptic historian) and by El-Makresi (Arab historian).

    There were 168 dioceses at the time. This results in an average of 90 churches / bishop.

    There was no technology or any fast communication methods and the bishop had to be phsycially present or write letters to communicate with his flock. They had no podcasts, facebook pages or teleconferences that can reach everyone instantenously.

    Transportation within one diocese would require exhausting trips on donkeys or traveling by foot rather than airconditioned cars or first class flights with all the comfort it provides.

    Persecution was at a peak with no media coverage whatsoever and no protection but God. Compare this to the relative luxury Copts enjoy in Egypt or the complete luxury they are immersed in outside of Egypt.

    You would expect those Copts of the 7th century not to survive. Hey, they did not even have Sunday School, conventions or CYC. 

    No.

    The Church in the 7th century was by far stronger than now, with 90 church / bishop and adverse circumstances on all levels. Why?

    Maybe they were filled with the Spirit and we are not. Maybe they were true men of God as opposed to managers graduating from the Sunday School movement. 

    Now, I do not care if they appoint a bishop for every church, or a bishop for the kitchen and another responsible for the A/C system within one church, but these managerial arrangements will never improve the service with the absence of the true ecclesiastical model. 

    As long as the service in the Coptic Church is considered a human endeavor that is based on human qualities, it will only improve by human standards. Big cathedrals, a meeting every six minutes in the church, huge financial resources, marketing and sales displays, service classes based on modern psychological "discoveries", marriage classes based on Freud and modern age theories, huge conventions, ... this sort of thing.

    Only when we have properly ordained bishops who are united with God, commissioned by God and who God can use for His glory, the service will improve.

    But most importantly, is Anba David gonna be relocated? 
  • Now we know what really happened concerning these dioceses being created, bishops being ordained, and enthroned lol


Memorial for HH Pope Shenouda

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