Prayer in Coptic vs Prayer in English?

I am deacon from the land of immigration and I absolutely love the Coptic language and our Coptic Hymns - and I will never change. But after discovering this site: www.coptichymnsinenglish.net I am wandering whether it is better to pray our hymns in Coptic or English?

I would like to know your thoughts on this topic and any ways of enhancing prayer in Coptic or how to make a Coptic hymn a more beneficial prayer.

God Bless

Comments

  • I think that expecting people to learn a language just so they can participate in the services is wrong. If you would read 1 Corinthians 14:13-19, you would find that St. Paul agrees. However, I do not advocate the removal of Coptic; instead, I think that some of our prayers are designed in a way such that it would not make much a difference to chant them in English (ie Pekethronos). Also, a lot of people prefer some hymns in Coptic like the hymn of Taishoury, or the hymn of intercessions. At the same time, most churches rarely say Ifrahi ya Mariam in Coptic. The point is, you cannot satisfy everyone. I personally believe that Coptic ought to be integrated alongside the language of interpretation on the condition that a translation is provided without the congregation having to find it (like a projector).

    If you are a lead deacon, it would not be wise to-all of a sudden-switch into English while everyone else is praying in Coptic or Arabic. This will negatively impact the prayer if no one is familiar with the hymn (assuming you have not taught it to anyone). At the same time, I believe that the language of the country should be the primary language of the services so that you are able to attract others to the faith (and by attract, I mean to make it more accessible to those who are catechumens). With the exception of long hymns and crowd favorites (Taishory, Hiten, Agios...), Coptic should be the second language. Keep in mind that there ought to be a translation for every Coptic hymn.

    I believe the Liturgy is so detailed and full of depth that, if one were to study it on its own, he/she would find himself amazed at the amount of symbolism, detail, and beauty found in it. It would be a shame to have a language barrier come between this. Christ did not expect the gentiles to learn Hebrew once they converted, so why should we?
  • There is a similar conversation going on here: http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,7582.0.html (Starting from reply #14)
  • [quote author=Faithfull Servant 1 link=topic=13792.msg160684#msg160684 date=1351247030]
    I am deacon from the land of immigration and I absolutely love the Coptic language and our Coptic Hymns - and I will never change. But after discovering this site: www.coptichymnsinenglish.net I am wandering whether it is better to pray our hymns in Coptic or English?

    I would like to know your thoughts on this topic and any ways of enhancing prayer in Coptic or how to make a Coptic hymn a more beneficial prayer.

    God Bless

    are you seriously comparing ALL OF OUR CHURCH coptic hymns with what's on one page on site above?!......tasbeha.org, the BIGGEST library of coptic hymns in the world, still are missing many of the hymns that are recently have been recorded and made famous.....

  • I don't think we should be comparing which is better. I give the responces in arabic, coptic and english. i love them all. Abouna even does a bit of it in amharic because we have ethiopians in the church. Everyone is comfortable with it.
  • Disappointed I am
    oujai
  • This site is developed to assist English speaking converts into becoming members of the Coptic Church. The site is developed by deacons who serve with Fr. Antony Messeh in the DC area.
  • Dear imikhail, please clarify to me if your post was a response to mine. You didn't use quoting so I am not so sure
    Oujai
  • What people fail to realize is that prayer is not solely a function of cognitive intellect. In fact, cognitive intellect is the least important mechanism at work.

    Prayer requires
    1. Spiritual cognisance: You have to be aware of the existence of God through faith, not physical senses.
    2. Spiritual yearning: You must yearn to return to your creator. If you enjoy life here, like most atheists, there is no need to pray.
    3. Spiritual discipline: As long as you live on earth, you will suffer physically. It requires spiritual discipline to follow the commandments in the bible.
    4. Spiritual oversight: Prayer is a gift from God for our enjoyment. We need to pray for things that above our individual physical needs. We pray for God's will to be done
    5. Intellectual cognisance: You have to be intellectually aware of what you are saying.

    Keep in mind, language in itself is not a function of #5 only. Redundant prayer (also known as continuous prayer in the Bible) requires all five mechanisms. If you pray the Agpeya in English only without #1-4, you're not praying. Your mind will wander and you will be saying Kyrie eleson without actually thinking about your sins. You will say things like "Seven times every day I will praise your name" in English but not have the spiritual discipline to actually pray seven times every day. If you're a Sunday School servant, you know that every kid in every Church in every grade, when asked to pray, says "Thank you God for this lesson. Let the people who didn't come this week come next week. Amen." No one ever thinks of praying for the air we breath, the sun and the moon, the sins we commit that force us to repentance, and so on. There is no oversight.

    Why are we so keen on "correcting" our Church by introducing English and expecting a more efficacious result? Does the Antiochian Orthodox Church that uses 100% English in their service have more converts or a more effective Church? No. They have the same problems and difficulties that all Orthodox Churches face. Additionally, I have yet to hear one convert claim they want 100% English. I have yet to hear one convert say "Thank you for more English". Why? Because these converts have begun the journey to use all five mechanisms for their prayer. They are able to have enough discipline to pray in Coptic while using intellectual cognisance in the translation. They have trained themselves to contemplate on the words in English while learning to use Coptic as an adjunct to reach a meaningful effective prayer.

    People, like the creators of coptichymnsinEnglish.net, have good intentions but they fail to realize language is not the important part of praying. You'll notice that in 1 Corinthians 14:13-17, St Paul doesn't recommend or endorse removal of glossolalia (speaking in tongues). He says pray that someone can interpret. We have the English translations to satisfy that requirement. St Paul makes the point that prayer in the Spirit requires understanding (or intellectual cognisance). On the flip side, praying with intellectual cognisance alone does not edify those around you. St James doesn't say "the effective fervent prayer of the righteous in the vernacular language avails much". No. He says, "the effective fervent prayer of the righteous in the vernacular language avails much" James 5:16. Before this, in the first half of James 5:16, he says, "Confess your sins and pray for one another". Confession, praying with spiritual oversight, spiritual discipline makes one righteous with an efficacious prayer, not the language.

    I personally have no problem praying everything in English. I have a problem with people using it as an excuse not to pray in Coptic. Instead of increasing discipline by learning Coptic, people prefer to take the easy way expecting more spirituality. It won't happen. You only develop a lazy congregation. And while we can't expect everyone to learn Coptic or make Coptic a requirement, we can expect everyone one to take person responsibility to prevent laziness. Once this happens, people will ask to learn more, including Coptic. See the difference?
  • Dear remenkimi,
    amazed I am.. thanks man
    oujai
  • Ophadecee, don't take this as insult.

    Since we are talking about foreign languages, I have a question about an observation about your last few posts. I'm pretty sure your British English doesn't allow an "Object-Subject-Verb" sequence (like "amazed I am"). It should be "Subject-Verb-Object" (like "I am amazed"). The only "language" I know that allows that reverse sentence sequence is Yoda English. Although George Lucas never told us which planet Yoda came from, nor did he tell us what species Yoda was, and even though there are supposedly 4 characters from Yoda's species, only two spoke with that "Object-Subject-Verb" sequence...

    so my question is, are you Yoda? Or are you Yoda's Coptic relative? If you are, it makes you all the more intriguing.  ;)
  • I personally have met a few people who have left the church because they cannot stand to pray in a language that they do not understand. I cannot fault them for that. Our church should not allow a language barrier come between its worshippers; and I dont believe it is a compromise as long as the orthodox faith is unchanged. I do agree that solely understanding the lyrics of the prayer does not necessarily mean we are praying but it is necessary if we wish to "pray with understanding." Others do not have the benefit of being fluent like you guys (Remnkemi & Ophadece), so I do not think you guys can relate. The church is filled with so much beauty and its all disguised to them in words that have no meaning (to them). I personally started to appreciate the midnight praise much more after chanting certain parts in english because it allowed my mind to focus on what I was saying and not just on the tunes. My friend and I found the Sunday Theotokia to be quite enlightening when chanted in a language we could understand. I believe that those who are not as well disciplined in their prayer (myself), find that the words to the prayer are one of the first mechanisms that engage people into prayer to begin with. So, although not being the most important, it definitely is considered a requirement to have.
  • Dear remenkimi,
    these were just made up expressions I came out with
    dear Amoussa01,
    One of the reasons I was disappointed is because of you. I highly respect you as a person and never wanted to hear such a comment from you. This church is not called Coptic orthodox for no reason, but certainly many people don't care about that anymore.. you mentioned those things because you are Christian.. and Coptic.. you cannot understand the appreciation non-Christians have hearing and reading about our treasures.. nothing else
    oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13792.msg160828#msg160828 date=1351745259]
    Dear remenkimi,
    these were just made up expressions I came out with
    dear Amoussa01,
    One of the reasons I was disappointed is because of you. I highly respect you as a person and never wanted to hear such a comment from you. This church is not called Coptic orthodox for no reason, but certainly many people don't care about that anymore.. you mentioned those things because you are Christian.. and Coptic.. you cannot understand the appreciation non-Christians have hearing and reading about our treasures.. nothing else
    oujai



    Ophadece,

    I am not advocating the removal of Coptic from our services. I am also not advocating having our services entirely in Coptic. I believe a balance should be in order. If you would re-read my first post, you will see my views.
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