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do we believe in Purgatory
  • Do we believe in Purgatory? Is it just another word for Hades?

    Is Hades a place of waiting or is it hell?

    As Coptic Orthodox Christians do we believe in a place of waiting for hell just like we believe in a place of waiting for heaven? (Paradise).
    ???
  • Yes there is a place of waiting for Hell but that is not what Purgatory is in the Catholic scheme of things.
  • basically purgatory is a place where those going to heaven first go to become purified because the idea is that no matter how much you tried to live a pure life, repented, lived a holy life etc nobody is perfect. Having said that, anyone who has any speck of sin in him/her cannot enter heaven. Therefore, they came up with this neat idea that you go to purgatory where your remaining sins are *purged*  by a type of fire and then you can go to heaven. They always use the classic example of, if you break a glass you will have to pay for it in order for your debt to be wiped free..they use Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 as sources which say "you will not be freed from prison until the last penny is paid") and interpret it as legitimacy for purgatory.
  • so we as  Coptic people do or do not believe it?
  • [quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13359.msg156310#msg156310 date=1338690556]
    so we as  Coptic people do or do not believe it?
    [/quote]

    actually there are some Coptic people who believe in purgatory but they are known as Coptic Catholics :)

    But as ilovestmark mentioned, no, Orthodox (Copts) do not believe in purgatory since it goes against the grace of God.
  • [quote author=Timothym link=topic=13359.msg156309#msg156309 date=1338680625]
    basically purgatory is a place where those going to heaven first go to become purified because the idea is that no matter how much you tried to live a pure life, repented, lived a holy life etc nobody is perfect. Having said that, anyone who has any speck of sin in him/her cannot enter heaven. Therefore, they came up with this neat idea that you go to purgatory where your remaining sins are *purged*  by a type of fire and then you can go to heaven. They always use the classic example of, if you break a glass you will have to pay for it in order for your debt to be wiped free..they use Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 as sources which say "you will not be freed from prison until the last penny is paid") and interpret it as legitimacy for purgatory.
    [/quote]

    I must say, that was very well explained Tim.

    I had this chat with a catholic friend of mine who said to me: "Look, let's say that I offend someone (where I'm at fault) and the other person doesn't forgive me - God, being Just, cannot let you get away unpunished - therefore, you have to pay for that in purgatory... also, no repentance is perfect".)

    I found this mentality to be a bit odd:

    * Forgiveness is from God. We forgive others as we have been forgiven.

    Secondly, the thief on the cross repented, confessed and was baptized in his blood, I suppose, with Christ.

    Our Lord said to him: "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise" - He didn't say "You will be with me in Paradise, but after you've been purified".

    Thirdly, to say that no amount of repentance is perfect, is awful. That's not true.

    If you look at the story of the prodigal son, the Father ran to greet His son. The Father didn't say :"Hang on a sec, my son has to be washed 1st, cleaned, and purified, before I allow him back at home"- It was instant.

    Finally, Christ's blood purified us of sin. To think, to say, or to acknowledge that this was insufficient is actually prideful. Our sins are absolved. Christ has cast our sin from us. Its pretty much a sad day to be told "Hang on.. actually, your sin is still there.. it hasn't been absolved completely".

    Now, with respect to the issue of the "last penny being paid" - here is my sentiments.

    Every sin has 2 effects: Spiritual and Physical.

    Repentance nullifies the effects of the spiritual aspect of the sin.
    Unfortunately, repentance does not nullify the physical aspects of the sin.

    For example, if I smoke, I can stop, repent and this sinful habit is absolved from me. However, it doesn't mean that I may have escaped the damaging effects of smoking. I may well have had lung cancer.

    I also believe, and I think the Coptic Church believes this too, that there is "closeness" to God. Saint Mary, the Theotokos, is at the right hand side of Christ. The archangels, the saints the apostles are close to Christ.
    Depending on how we were honest in our repentance determines where we expect to be in heaven. This is my sentiments - i'm not stuck on this opinion, and would love to hear from Fr. Peter or anyone what their thoughts are on this aspect.
  • My podcasts in the intermediate state of the soul after death swallowed with these issues.
  • see this page; 3rd one down currently
    :)
    http://orthodoxfaith.podbean.com/
  • [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=13359.msg156317#msg156317 date=1338731315]
    [quote author=Timothym link=topic=13359.msg156309#msg156309 date=1338680625]
    basically purgatory is a place where those going to heaven first go to become purified because the idea is that no matter how much you tried to live a pure life, repented, lived a holy life etc nobody is perfect. Having said that, anyone who has any speck of sin in him/her cannot enter heaven. Therefore, they came up with this neat idea that you go to purgatory where your remaining sins are *purged*  by a type of fire and then you can go to heaven. They always use the classic example of, if you break a glass you will have to pay for it in order for your debt to be wiped free..they use Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 as sources which say "you will not be freed from prison until the last penny is paid") and interpret it as legitimacy for purgatory.
    [/quote]

    I must say, that was very well explained Tim.

    I had this chat with a catholic friend of mine who said to me: "Look, let's say that I offend someone (where I'm at fault) and the other person doesn't forgive me - God, being Just, cannot let you get away unpunished - therefore, you have to pay for that in purgatory... also, no repentance is perfect".)

    I found this mentality to be a bit odd:

    * Forgiveness is from God. We forgive others as we have been forgiven.

    Secondly, the thief on the cross repented, confessed and was baptized in his blood, I suppose, with Christ.

    Our Lord said to him: "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise" - He didn't say "You will be with me in Paradise, but after you've been purified".

    Thirdly, to say that no amount of repentance is perfect, is awful. That's not true.

    If you look at the story of the prodigal son, the Father ran to greet His son. The Father didn't say :"Hang on a sec, my son has to be washed 1st, cleaned, and purified, before I allow him back at home"- It was instant.

    Finally, Christ's blood purified us of sin. To think, to say, or to acknowledge that this was insufficient is actually prideful. Our sins are absolved. Christ has cast our sin from us. Its pretty much a sad day to be told "Hang on.. actually, your sin is still there.. it hasn't been absolved completely".

    Now, with respect to the issue of the "last penny being paid" - here is my sentiments.

    Every sin has 2 effects: Spiritual and Physical.

    Repentance nullifies the effects of the spiritual aspect of the sin.
    Unfortunately, repentance does not nullify the physical aspects of the sin.

    For example, if I smoke, I can stop, repent and this sinful habit is absolved from me. However, it doesn't mean that I may have escaped the damaging effects of smoking. I may well have had lung cancer.

    I also believe, and I think the Coptic Church believes this too, that there is "closeness" to God. Saint Mary, the Theotokos, is at the right hand side of Christ. The archangels, the saints the apostles are close to Christ.
    Depending on how we were honest in our repentance determines where we expect to be in heaven. This is my sentiments - i'm not stuck on this opinion, and would love to hear from Fr. Peter or anyone what their thoughts are on this aspect.
    [/quote]

    thanks zoxasi but I basically summarized my conversation with a catholic priest who is a good friend of mine and I was really trying to understand purgatory from their own point of view, not from a skewed point of view.We talked about it for a long time! :) I listened to Fr Peters podcast but I'll have to listen to it again. Theres a lot of good info.
  • Thanks every one and thanks abouna peter :)
  • [quote author=Timothym link=topic=13359.msg156325#msg156325 date=1338743598]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=13359.msg156317#msg156317 date=1338731315]
    [quote author=Timothym link=topic=13359.msg156309#msg156309 date=1338680625]
    basically purgatory is a place where those going to heaven first go to become purified because the idea is that no matter how much you tried to live a pure life, repented, lived a holy life etc nobody is perfect. Having said that, anyone who has any speck of sin in him/her cannot enter heaven. Therefore, they came up with this neat idea that you go to purgatory where your remaining sins are *purged*  by a type of fire and then you can go to heaven. They always use the classic example of, if you break a glass you will have to pay for it in order for your debt to be wiped free..they use Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 as sources which say "you will not be freed from prison until the last penny is paid") and interpret it as legitimacy for purgatory.
    [/quote]

    I must say, that was very well explained Tim.

    I had this chat with a catholic friend of mine who said to me: "Look, let's say that I offend someone (where I'm at fault) and the other person doesn't forgive me - God, being Just, cannot let you get away unpunished - therefore, you have to pay for that in purgatory... also, no repentance is perfect".)

    I found this mentality to be a bit odd:

    * Forgiveness is from God. We forgive others as we have been forgiven.

    Secondly, the thief on the cross repented, confessed and was baptized in his blood, I suppose, with Christ.

    Our Lord said to him: "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise" - He didn't say "You will be with me in Paradise, but after you've been purified".

    Thirdly, to say that no amount of repentance is perfect, is awful. That's not true.

    If you look at the story of the prodigal son, the Father ran to greet His son. The Father didn't say :"Hang on a sec, my son has to be washed 1st, cleaned, and purified, before I allow him back at home"- It was instant.

    Finally, Christ's blood purified us of sin. To think, to say, or to acknowledge that this was insufficient is actually prideful. Our sins are absolved. Christ has cast our sin from us. Its pretty much a sad day to be told "Hang on.. actually, your sin is still there.. it hasn't been absolved completely".

    Now, with respect to the issue of the "last penny being paid" - here is my sentiments.

    Every sin has 2 effects: Spiritual and Physical.

    Repentance nullifies the effects of the spiritual aspect of the sin.
    Unfortunately, repentance does not nullify the physical aspects of the sin.

    For example, if I smoke, I can stop, repent and this sinful habit is absolved from me. However, it doesn't mean that I may have escaped the damaging effects of smoking. I may well have had lung cancer.

    I also believe, and I think the Coptic Church believes this too, that there is "closeness" to God. Saint Mary, the Theotokos, is at the right hand side of Christ. The archangels, the saints the apostles are close to Christ.
    Depending on how we were honest in our repentance determines where we expect to be in heaven. This is my sentiments - i'm not stuck on this opinion, and would love to hear from Fr. Peter or anyone what their thoughts are on this aspect.
    [/quote]

    thanks zoxasi but I basically summarized my conversation with a catholic priest who is a good friend of mine and I was really trying to understand purgatory from their own point of view, not from a skewed point of view.We talked about it for a long time! :) I listened to Fr Peters podcast but I'll have to listen to it again. Theres a lot of good info.
    [/quote]

    Bud,

    I had the SAME conversation and I came back with the same summary as you. lol. Perhaps we spoke to the same priest.

    Regardless - I love the Roman Catholics and I think their churches are beautiful. I just wish they'd stop innovating stuff.
  • Roman catholics aaaaaah


    Well i agree their church is beautiful but i have this against them

    Their Church is for people not for god

    therefore our faith is more accurate and i will not say they are wrong (though they are).


Memorial for HH Pope Shenouda

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