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More than one Pope?
If a Pope/Patriarch ever visits or is invited to a service already with H.H. Pope Shenouda III attending, as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wypbNYD6z2k&feature=related (The Patriarch isnt even Oriental Orthodox, so is he allowed to serve in the liturgy?), do we say papal hymns only for our Pope, or for both? Also, you know when only the Pope can hold a staff and no bishop? Would the visiting Pope/Patriarch be allowed to hold one, also?
Comments
He speaks out of both sides of his mouth like Yasser Arafat used to do.
hahaha...what's weird is that he odes look like him.
He has the backing of the Ecumenical Patriarch to be a constant thorn in the side of the Coptics. The Greek Orthodox Patriarch is slippery in his orations. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth like Yasser Arafat used to do.
Can you elaborate please?
The Greek Orthodox Patriarch likes to malign the Coptics as being monophysites, and then turn around and
say it was incorrect translation or issue taken out of context.
Question: Where are these millions?
There was a guy from the Byzantine side on this site, previously, who was trying to claim that there were 10-30 million Byzantine adherents in Africa under the tutelage of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch. My reply: sure...sure...sure. Sometimes you get hallucinations in the heat of the Serrengeti.
The Greek Orthodox Church in Alexandria and all Africa is lead by Theodorus II.
Your namings are correct. It was hard for me to distinguish the face in the video. The outer garb is Byzantine/Greek.
I have no reason to doubt your naming of the person in the video. They are both of Byzantine thought, the first that you mention has Byzantine with a touch of Latin spice added to his thoughts. Unfortunately, what I wrote previously is applicable to both persons, regardless of who is in the video clip.
The reason he reverts to lies is no different than Nestorius and Arius. In their manner he is afraid of losing his title.
The pharisees too
The only way to render anyone else claiming a similar title is: usurper, fake, contra-Orthodox.
It's funny for an Alexandrine Church under the Byzantine umbrella, there are no native Egyptians. They import people from Greece and the Middle East in order to populate their few remaining parishes. Each year they sell back to the Coptics the same churches that they stole in decades and centuries past. In each year they surrender that which they took by the sword and blood. Each year they are humiliated for the murder and atrocity they committed by losing their hold on Egypt little by little without any aggression on the part of the Coptics.
Their fake doctrines, their fake accusations are slowly being eradicated from Egypt.
Well to
To be fair in some of our Hymns we call them Heritics too... and I brought this up to Abouna... Why do we call Other orthodox Christians heretics but we call the Muslims our "Brothers"...
Will you please elaborate on which hymns we refr to them as heretics?
Thanks
Well to be fair in some of our Hymns we call them Heritics too... and I brought this up to Abouna... Why do we call Other orthodox Christians heretics but we call the Muslims our "Brothers"...
if i know the truth and i have lied than i have sinned.
if i don't know the truth and lie (here it's not really lying) i have not sinned.
We are judged based on what we know; what we believe in to be true we must follow. but if choose to pervert it, we are heretics.
Now what if the Pope was Oriental Orthodox? would we say anything for him? and what about the staff?
The staff resembles shepherd-hood. So, the person holding the staff is the person responsible for the shepherd under his diocese. In the example you gave, it would be Pope Shenouda holding the staff.
This is, sadly, not the official position of the COC. The so-called Malekite (Greek)Patriarch of Alexandria, who oversees the "spiritual" affairs of the 20 Greeks in Africa, is officially recognized by H.H. Pope Shenouda and the COC synod as a legtimate Patriarch and, more importantly, an Orthodox Patriarch. By the way, this is the position regarding all the hierarchs on the Byzantine Chalcedonian side worldwide.
H.H. Pope Shenouda has said once that in case the "ever-imminent" unity happens with the Chalcedonians, he will abdict in favour of the Malekite Chalcedonian Patriarch and go back to the monastery. Aren't these the same guys the COC hierarchy and congregations are begging for unity?
All what you said is true except for the part of the party getting humiliated. Who is licking the feet of the others for unity? Who is selling out on the martyrs blood and heritage? Don't kid yourself.
They own Egypt and all the Coptic Churches worldwide and their influence is growing and cannot be contained due to the unity talks. John of Damascus, John so-called Climacus, Maximos of Constantinople and their contemporary writers are being cited as Orthodox everywhere in all Coptic Churches and are the references for theology and christology.
If you mention the legacy of Severus to any Coptic bishop, he will have the deer in the light look on his face. Needless to say that the names of Philoxenus or Theodosius are totally alien. The same bishop will recite the heresies of John of Damascus by heart and will freely quote Maximos. But you do not "fully" trust him? You trust him "partially", maybe?
He is Chalcedonian, and he protects the interests of his community. You cannot hold this against him. He is doing a fantastic job in progressing his agenda in Egypt and is winning followers in the lion's den. This requires a man with special talents and who masters all tools, including treachery and dishonesty. He is not charged with protecting the COC, our holy synod is. They are doing a miserable job on this front.
Do you know the story of the frog and the scorpion?
Lord have mercy. Maybe because for 15 centuries they were considered heretics and they have been consistently anathemized by all saints of the Church for their Chalcedonian heresy. It is only 40 years ago that we decided to reverse the well established situation and call them orthodox for political reasons.
Thank God that we finally discovered that our Fathers, Severus, Dioscoros, Timothy, Theodosius, Philoxenus, Jacob of Serug, and about 80 Popes and thousands of bishops throughout 15 centuries issued false anathemas against the Chalcedonians and are therefore a bunch of Idiots. In the canons of the Church, any person who issues false anathema is himself anathema. It is weird that we still mention the above persons in the congregation of the saints while they were confused idiots.
yeah, and we all need to stop it.
Annulling the anathemas would certainly be a necessity for reunion, but we must not be so quick to throw out over 1500 years worth of tradition. If the anathemas are lifted in a spirit of haste and false ecumenism we would be undermining our hagiographies, hymns, liturgical praxis and the memory of thousands of Saints, many of whom suffered greatly under the Chalcedonian reign of the the Chalcedonian Emperors. I am all for a unity based on truth, but undermining over 1500 years worth of the Church's magisterial teaching is not a way to go about reuniting our Churches.
1) We are united to the Byzantine Chalcedonians already. Once some of us signed the agreed statements on our behalf, we have validated the Faith, the sacrements, the theology, christology and all elements of the Chalcedonian ideology and confessed it as Christian and orthodox. The language of the agreed statements is very clear and attributes the mutual anathema to political and cultural issues, and misunderstandings.
A church, with 1500 years of misunderstanding, is not a church. It is a joke. Regardless, the unity is a reality.
2) We are united to the Chalcedonians by virtue of validating their sacraments through inter-marriages and inter-communion. Officially, the COC does not object to a marriage held in accordance to Chalcedonian rites and in Chalcedonian churches, and regards it as valid and Orthodox. It used to be regarded as adultery by the confused Church Fathers, but not anymore.
No Byzantine Chalcedonian is denied communion ever based on Faith. They used to be rejected from communion, but this was an act of misunderstanding on the part of Severus and Disocoros, our so-called heroes of faith, but not anymore since we were enlightened by some modern studies that showed them, above mentioned so-called saints, to be mere idiots and fanatics.
3) We are united to the Byzantine Chalcedonians by being the keen disciples of their teachers. Their books fill our libraries, their sermons are on our ipods and iphones and their website are visited for "spiritual" education by us.
4) We are united to the Byzantine Chalcedonians by the admission of most of our hierarchs.
5) Anathemas were issued based on undeniable facts and confirmed charges of heresy against certain individuals. Annulling the anathema does not change the facts nor change the verdict against those individuals. They remain anathema and in hell, but we introduce ourself to communion with heretics condemned for their clear heresy. We cease to be the Church.
Annulling the anathema is a mere political action that has no basis whatsoever in the Orthodox theology and ecclessiology.
Our honored Pope, H.H. Pope Shenouda, has said that we will drop the anathema if the Chalcedonians drop theirs first. "Let go and I will let go" kind of thing. This shows that this unity is based on politics and not truth. If we really believe them to be Orthodox, we should drop the anathema on our side regardless of the Chalcedonian response.
6) There is no such thing as unity between Churches. There is only ONE CHURCH of CHRIST. You are either in the Church or outside the Church. Those outside have only one way of being part of the Church: Baptism.
In any case, this discussion is a little too late.
so i know very well about all the hipocracy in the greek church...
In fact, if you read Father Shenouda Maher's book about eccumenical unity, the discussions were about how the churches would concelabrate the liturgy and when to say Pope shenouda's name Vs. the other patriarchs.
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