Do the ends justify the means?

ilovesaintmark

Are we okay to do as we please in the regard for a suitable conclusion?

Win a lottery...then donate to a church
Lie a little...get a good job
Casino night...donations for an orphanage
Drink a little...social lubricant to get through an awkward night

Party it up at night...Church in the morning
Cover for a friend...so parents don't worry

geomike

Of course not! Even if you won the lottery you cannot put one cent of it in the church because u didn't work for that money.

dzheremi

The funny thing about lying is that when you pull it off and it goes your way the first time, it enables you to lie some more the next time that you can convince yourself that it's for a "good cause". What does Jesus Christ, our God, tell us? Be perfect, as the Father in heaven is perfect. God never lies to us...the father of all lies is rather someone else...someone we should never imitate in any circumstances.

None of the specific circumstances you mentioned really make sense, if you think about them. You can donate to the church without winning the lottery, get a job without lying (I do not know where you live, but in the USA lying on a job application is illegal and guarantees that you'll be fired if they find out), donate to an orphanage without gambling, and (this is probably the hardest one) actually develop social skills that make you fun to be around without alcohol. You really can do all these things. And since God knows that you can do all these things (since He's the one who gives you the power to do them), how do you think it'll look when you drag yourself to church expecting to be forgiven for a sin you planned to commit? Com'on, man...if you wouldn't try to pull that on your earthly father (and I really, really hope you wouldn't), then don't even think about it with your heavenly Father! And the last one...I know from experience that lying to "help" a friend doesn't help anyone...and their parents will worry a lot more once they know that they can't trust you!

yousiegtennis

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ilovesaintmark

I was just throwing it out there for contemplation for one thing.

Godlovesme,

I actually visited Machiavelli's tomb in Italy to get a sense of the guy.

I do not espouse his faulty philosophy.  I was a philosophy minor in college.

I just find this tenet to be used on a consistent basis in the church lately.  I am trying to avoid a particular example because it is bothering me terribly in how to deal with it.  There is an organization that is espousing this faulty reasoning to help others in Egypt.  Although this organization is not part of the aegis of the COC, it solicits from the members of the COC.

yousiegtennis

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ilovesaintmark

Really.

So how would you deal with a given scenario that I posed with a particular charitable organization?  They have some pretty interesting activities; all with a delightful cause of helping poor orphans.

Contemplate that, please.

ilovesaintmark

Of course, I am just speaking theoretically--mind you.

ilovesaintmark

Godlovesme,

Be careful.  You have taken the bait.  Watch what you say, because you will be entering very mirky territory.  I warned you.

Actually, that goes for everyone.  You have been warned.

yousiegtennis

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yousiegtennis

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TITL

I'll have to be honest with you, I think sometimes doing a little wrong for the good is acceptable. Speaking from a Christian point of view, its never acceptable.. but I would personally cover up for a friend so parent's don't worry, and then confess about it later lol.

I've constantly went through situations like this, where the only (easy/painless) way out was doing something wrong, and I personally went for that to avoid other troubles. Although I know it's wrong, I did it anyway.

I've never had a real job before, but I might exaggerate or flower up something simple (in ilovesaintmark's words: lie a little) to get the job. I will probably feel guilty for the rest of my life though.

I can't comment on the lottery, casino, or drinking, but if there was a party Saturday night (which I've never attended.. but "if"), I would feel much better going to church early in the morning.

I don't like this topic.. it's making me the bad guy.  ::)

marmar357

I agree that the last 5 are not good, but I wonder what's wrong with a lottery? Didn't u pay for a lot?? Then it's not stealing, isn't it? You won it honestly..like a child wins a price at sundayschool or whatever.

Gb

ilovesaintmark

A Lottery is gambling.

Here's a thought:  Is a Monte Carlo night to do fundraising acceptable?  Even for a cause to raise money for an orphanage.
Is a boozer's night acceptable to raise money even for poor starving orphans?

marmar357

[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10569.msg128697#msg128697 date=1296225873]
A Lottery is gambling.

Here's a thought:  Is a Monte Carlo night to do fundraising acceptable?  Even for a cause to raise money for an orphanage.
Is a boozer's night acceptable to raise money even for poor starving orphans?




No, ok I agree that a night in the club is not acceptable, whatever the goal is.
But a lottery/gambling is something else. You are not dancing and drinking, you just buy a lot.
I know gambling is wrong, I also don't see the use of it, but I don't understand why it's a sin?
Isn't it your money that u are wasting?

TITL

Today I peeled off the parking sticker from my car and parked in the visitor's parking lot on campus. I did it because it's much closer to the entrance and I had to pick up textbooks and walk them to my car. I get severe pain when carrying heavy items for a long time, so I did it to save myself from pain.

I think the scenario's ilovesaintmark gave in the original post are too extreme. But I agree that the ends do justify the means-- sometimes :)

ilovesaintmark

Gambling, without the long discussion is taking a gift from God and throwing it away.
It is a sin.

So, can one use that sin as a means to obtain money for a charitable situation?
Can you throw a party to booze it up and dance for the same?
Is it justified?

yousiegtennis

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TITL

See, that's too extreme of a scenario. Can we talk about covering up for a friend to save from parent-nervous-breakdowns? Or parking where you're not supposed to be parking? Or telling a "little" lie to prevent further damage?

What do you think GODlovesme?

TITL

I have a feeling this topic is about deacons.

yousiegtennis

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TITL

I don't think it's ever ever ever ever ever ever acceptable for deacons to act this way, but it can be tolerated and accepted from laymen. After all, we are nothing but the foot of soldiers among marines and captains.

I'm funny.

yousiegtennis

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ilovesaintmark

This one is not about deacons.

It is about an organization, using an orphanage as ends to justify the above issues.

I'm asking if it is justifiable act.

TITL

Why are you asking questions if you know the answers to everything?

There's either a lesson here or a lesson here. I'm thinking there's a lesson here.

yousiegtennis

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ilovesaintmark

Well, yes, actually:

Fundraising activities--
1.  Marathon
2.  Super Bowl Party (keg, hard liquor, etc)
3.  Dinners (inc. of DJ, hard liquor, etc)
4.  Monte Carlo night (casino chips that you buy and can win prizes--not directly a gambling situation, nonetheless: blackjack, roullette wheel, etc.)

The given group is not part of the Church, but donates towards the building of an orphanage.  Supposedly, in an American style, whatever that means.

TITL

So, what's the point you're tryin to make with this thread (aka: lesson to be learned... for deacons)?

ilovesaintmark

This has nothing to do with deacons.

It is basically a warning that there has been a shift in the character of our people.  There are new trends of using immoral and inappropriate associative techniques to try to raise money for an orphanage.


This group gets away with the issue in one regard by saying that they are not part of the diocese or the Patriarchate, hence they are not bound by any ecclesiastical conduct.  In other words, they do not have to answer to any ethic other than the mainstream society.

However, should the church accept this money?
Should one divulge to the hierarchy that this money is ill-gotten?

In the end, this could endanger the building of this orphanage.  That will be the "idealized" American type as they put it.

This is the focus of my questions and warning about where to put your contributions.

yousiegtennis

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TITL

If they're not part of the Church, then why isn't it justified? I think the Church should accept the money anyway.