Why does Abouna...

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
hello Copts! alright one simple question... after the sermon Abouna washes his hands and hold a towel and says i have sinned forgive me... alright wat does that mean.. y does he wash his hands and wipe them with a towel??

Enough

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  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Hegomen Athanasius Iskander explains it as follows in his book Understanding the Liturgy:

    The Washing of the hands:

    In the early Church, the washing of the hands was after the Kiss of Peace, during the Offering of the gifts. When the Offertory was moved to the beginning of the Liturgy (probably around the 4th century), another washing of the hands was “copied” to its new place, just before the procession of the Lamb. It was then that we started to have two washings, one in the offertory and another after the Kiss of Peace. [35] When the Prayer of Reconciliation was introduced before the Kiss of Peace (around the 6th century), the second washing was placed before the Prayer of Reconciliation.

    Why did the Church keep two washings? It is because the washing is meant to prepare the priest spiritually before approaching the altar, “I will wash my hands in innocency, so will I compass thine altar O Lord” (Ps. 26:6). In the beginning, the priest approached the altar once, after the Kiss of Peace, the first part of the Liturgy (the Liturgy of the catechumens) being done entirely outside the Sanctuary. [36] When the offertory was moved to the beginning of the Liturgy, the priest approached the altar twice, once during the offertory, and once again when he prays the Prayer of Reconciliation.

    When the priest has washed his hands, he shakes his hands in front of the congrega­tion as a sign of warning that anyone approach­ing the table of the Lord unworthily, will be responsible for his own condemnation.

  • He is also washing for innocence. Remember the movie the passion? Well in the movie, pontious pilate washed his hands to show that he was innocent of Christs punishment (doesnt mean he was innocent). So likewise, abouna washes his hands to show his innocence from whoever partakes of the Holy Body and Blood unworthily. For some strange reason i see people making the sign of the cross when abouna does this.....its obvious they dont understand. Anyway, i hope that helped.

    GB
    Tony
  • ya good point
    I never got that how come we say:

    "Crucified under Pontious Pilate"

    When PP washed his hands of Christs Blood?

    Like why do we still consider him guilty of the Lord's Blood.
  • because he had the authority to stop it. But chose not to because of his fear that the people will cause chaos.
  • but that was the will of god...so why is he gulty for that if it was the will of god? the same with judas....its the will of god....so why are they guilty? i mean god saved us cause of his crucification....so why are they guilty?
    pls explain it to me...i want to know it

    pp4m
  • [quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5404.msg72044#msg72044 date=1181129559]
    but that was the will of god...so why is he gulty for that if it was the will of god? the same with judas....its the will of god....so why are they guilty? i mean god saved us cause of his crucification....so why are they guilty?


    u can't blame it on God. God knows what happends and what will. He gives us freewill even thoo He knews what wikll choose. But we always have a choise. Pilete could kept Crhist from being cricified; he had that power.......Judas could of repented as St.Peter; but he didn't and brought death to himself in the lowest of hedes.
  • i know that we have freewill...but jesus had to be on the cross to save us...and i dont blame it on god...but jesus had also the power to save us so without crusification...so why that all...are they really guilty?
  • Just to correct one thing, Jesus had to be crusified to save us. God could not just say your sins are forgiven. God had to have blood. and it had to be the blood of His Only Begotten Son, God is a fair God, He cannot contradict Himself. when adam and eve sinned he said you will surely die. so he cannot just say you are fogiven. just a side note on the topic
  • thanks jydeacon...so why are they guilty, if pilatus and judas had to do that...
    pls respond

    pp4m
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Pilate and Judas did not have to do anything.  Judas freely chose to betray Christ despite Christ warning him beforehand about it.  Now, the question becomes, what is the difference between Judas and Peter?  They both denied and betrayed their Master correct?  They both were forewarned about their denial and betrayal as well, correct?  So what makes Peter a great saint, and Judas such a cursed person?  Peter repented, wept bitterly and did not lose hope.  Judas did not.  Judas wept bitterly over what he did, but he did not repent and he lost hope. 

    Now, in the case of Pilate, we know he was the governor of Palestine.  We also know, from history, that at the time of Christ, his position and power was very weak.  Thus, Pilate was very easily influenced by the Jewish authority.  That being said, he still could have freed Christ if he wished.  However, instead of doing that, he washed his hands trying to show that he was innocent of Christ's blood.  The thing is, he wasn't.  Crucifixion, as we know from history, was a common form of punishment carried out by the Romans.  Granted, it predates the Romans, but they perfected the technique.  So, even though the Jewish authority called for Jesus' death, it was Pilate who granted it to them, despite the fact that he knew that Jesus was innocent.

    I just finished reading a very interesting article by the late Father Matta el Meskeen called 'The Vast Bounds of Faith in God'.  It is quite an insightful article and discusses how God, in His omnipotence, is able to turn the evil that men do, into good.  He uses it as part of His ultimate plan in the end.  The death of Christ is and example of this.
  • still no answer on what i asked...the will of god...why are they guilty?
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    We are all held accountable for our actions and decisions (whether good or bad).  I'm not sure what you mean when you ask about guilt though.  Guilty of what exactly?
  • guilty of the crucifixion...pilatus an judas...why exactly are they guilty if it was the will of god that jesus had to be crusificated....
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    They are not guilty of the crucifixion per se.  They are guilty of condemning an innocent man though.  Judas betrayed his Lord and Master to the unbelievers, and Pilate allowed for the death of a Man he knew to be innocent.  It is those actions that they are guilty of.  As for the death of Christ, you and I know that we are all responsible for that because of our sins.
  • hey, aripsalin, i really dont understand why you are asking the same question over and over again where many people already answered it man. Judas did not have to betray Christ....it was not the only way we could be saved. He chose to betray Christ because of his greed and then he hangs himself. So he commits suicide and therefore goes to Hades. Pilate also had the ability to stop the people from allowing the crucifixion. Techinically we cant say he went to hell, who are we to judge anyway? but he still had the authority to stop it all. Thats all im saying. It was not required that all these horrible actions (by judas and pilate) be carried out for Christ to save us. There could have been another way. I hope this helped

    GB
    Tony
  • Dear Αριψαλιν,

    God has given us all free will, therefore it is not, strictly speaking, God' will that Pilate and Judas were guilty of anything - it was their freely taken choice. Like all of us, they were responsible for what they did. They couldn't blame fate, God, or any of the other things people sometimes like to blame instead of putting it where it belongs - on oneself.

    Hope that helps a little.

    In Christ,

    Anglian
  • thats the answer i wanted to hear....thank u very much Kifas....

    pp4m
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=5404.msg72049#msg72049 date=1181132413]
    [quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5404.msg72044#msg72044 date=1181129559]
    but that was the will of god...so why is he gulty for that if it was the will of god? the same with judas....its the will of god....so why are they guilty? i mean god saved us cause of his crucification....so why are they guilty?


    u can't blame it on God. God knows what happends and what will. He gives us freewill even thoo He knews what wikll choose. But we always have a choise. Pilete could kept Crhist from being cricified; he had that power.......Judas could of repented as St.Peter; but he didn't and brought death to himself in the lowest of hedes.


    There are levels in Hades?
  • [quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=5404.msg72406#msg72406 date=1181616474]
    There are levels in Hades?


    yes as there is levels in Heaven. like for example we know that Judas is in the lowest part of Hades.
  • there is "gohanam we gahim" and "el fardous wel sama2 el sama2eya" that are the four we hav...the moslim belive in seven hells and seven heavens.....
  • [quote author=Αριψαλιν link=topic=5404.msg72421#msg72421 date=1181642790]
    there is "gohanam we gahim" and "el fardous wel sama2 el sama2eya" that are the four we hav...the moslim belive in seven hells and seven heavens.....



    dispite that. Heaven is a place and Pradise is another. same to Hell and Hades.
    Pradise is the waiting place for Heaven.
    Hades is the waiting plase for Hell.

    now in Heaven and Hell have levels.

    btw, there is 4 heavens.
  • Unless, it says that Judas is in hell in the Bible (which, to my knowledge, it doesn't, though it greatly condemns him), we cannot make that statement because we do not know what was in his heart. We do know that there are four heavens (St. Paul ascended to the third heaven), but we do not know how many levels of Hell there are. I have a question, does anybody know what the Church's stance is on Dante's Inferno?
  • [quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=5404.msg72431#msg72431 date=1181657635]
    I have a question, does anybody know what the Church's stance is on Dante's Inferno?


    It is what it is: a medieval Italian work of poetry. As such it has absolutely no dogmatic position within Orthodoxy (nor any other position for that matter).

    The fact that it speaks of things such as purgatory - a concept totally rejected by the Church - is enough to suggest that one should not take it too seriously (though I don't think Dante ever intended to produce anything more than a symbolic work of poetry).
  • [quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=5404.msg72431#msg72431 date=1181657635]
    Unless, it says that Judas is in hell in the Bible (which, to my knowledge, it doesn't, though it greatly condemns him), we cannot make that statement because we do not know what was in his heart.

    He committed suicide.....Christ Himself have said, praying to the Father, thanking Him for giving Him the twelve where they will all be saved except the son of perdition.

    John 17:12
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.


    We do know that there are four heavens (St. Paul ascended to the third heaven), but we do not know how many levels of Hell there are. I have a question, does anybody know what the Church's stance is on Dante's Inferno?

    I don’t know much about this but according to my research he includes Purgatory which we don’t accept.
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