Protestanism!

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  • Hello AndieMichelel,

    The Protestants would not like you including Mormons among them, for Mormons are not Christians period.We can discuss this in another post if you like.

    From what you have said, Protestant are chaotic groups of hundreds of churches, each one with different belief.

    Great revelations that come from a Protestant!!!!!!!!!

  • Some interesting discussions here. I used to be Presbyterian before coming into the Coptic church. There is a huge breakdown in the sacraments with Protestantism, but one must hook the two up in theology. This is why Nestorius has such a great amount of respect in protestant churches, and we see him as a heretic. This is all hooked together in regards to Mary and Christ. Also, there are major misconceptions between Protestant and Orthodox. Protestants typically think that Orthodox believe that we are saved by grace plus works or by works. Of course, we don't believe this, but that we are saved by grace, but that works follow grace, but do not save or redeem, that is. Christ redeems. However, this is due to the misuderstanding of the sacraments. A sacrament is a means of grace, and when I came to understand this, then it was easy to embrace the sacraments and to come to an understanding of salvation in the Orthodox Church. I believe that this was the mistake the Roman Catholics made in not teaching sufficiently what the sacraments are and what they stand for. Then, because of lack of good understanding, people began to think they were saved by their works. Then you had guys like Luther and Calvin come along and see Ephesians 2, and repudiate the wrong teaching, but they went in the wrong direction in regard to the sacraments. Misunderstandings in sacraments and salvation is very dangerous! We need to be sure that the the young ones get this right. If this be the case, and we teach them, and they have the right understanding, we don't have to worry about the Protestants getting them.
  • Dearest to Christ AndieMichelle,

    There is no such thing as "the protestant church."

    Indeed. There are millions of Protestants but no such Church.

    There are protestant churches, and many of them are Apostolic.

    There is only one Church that is apostolic, the one founded upon Christ and the apostles by means of apostolic succession. The Protestants have deprived themselves of apostolicity by breaking the succession. They may be Christian, yes, but deprived of of the full life of Christ as present in His Body the apostolic Church.

    Most protestant churches have communion, and some have ordination.

    None of them have ordination for ordination is a Mystery (sacrament), the Mystery of priesthood, not the elevation of someone to Pastor. None of the Protestants have Communion, for again, we are dealing with a Mystery here, rejected by the Christians of the Reformation. And in so far as they reject Communion, they reject a certain level of intimacy, and growth in union, with Jesus Christ.

    You can not speak for one or even ten protestant churches and speak for all.

    Indeed, due to its individualist nature, Protestantism does not even form a Church a communion. At most they form a group of individuals with somewhat overlapping interpretations of the Bible. The lack of Mysteries (sacraments) constitutes a lack of unity, a lack of communion.

    There are protestant churhes that are very similar to Orthodox churches.

    Some Protestants have broken away from other groups of Protestants and have given themselves the name of Orthodox Church, but they are no such thing.

    Some churches do not have dating rules, others have age requirements for dating, and some like the Orthodox do not date. I do not know if any protestant practice the engagement method the way the Orthodox do, but it is possible. For the churches that I know of that do not date, the couple goes through a courtship then the engagement. The man must have the parents permission to court the daughter and the couple can not be alone together until after they are married.

    Dating rules are not really fit to assume a likeness to Orthodoxy upon,.. One might just as plausibly argue that such likeness exists between Hindu's or even atheists,.. This makes very little sense.

    The problem with many protestant churches is the same as the Catholic church; there are too many man made rules.

    Funny,.. that's exactly what I would say of Protestants,.. They put their faith too much in man (that is in their individual selves) and not enough in God and His Christ.

    Many churches ignore the teaching of the gospel.

    Indeed. One merely needs to read through the Reformation history and theology to figure that out. Calvin and Luther nearly managed to preach another Gospel than Christ brought!

    Someone said the Mormon Bible is different. That is not true. The Bible is the same, but the also use the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

    Well,.. I suspect the mormon-bible is not Septuagint based,.. That alone makes it different. Let alone the other scriptures they accept,.. Speaking of man-made things ;)

    Some churches do teach that everyone who is saved is a saint. Some teach that you receive salvation by just believing Jesus died for your sins. Some churches are named after Saints. Some have puplic fasting. Everything anyone has mentioned that is absent in "the protestant church" can be found in a protestant church.

    Indeed, Protestantism is very chaotic and individualist phenomenon. It has no real unifying principle, but some man-made rules the most prominent of which seems to be "the-bible-alone-ism" a very subtle heresy.

    If all athe potestant churches united and eliminated the ridiculous made stuff found in so many churches, there would be a church very similar to the Orthodox church.

    Not likely,.. If they would do that they would notice that they were standing naked in front of a closed Bible, but the moment they would open it, they would begin to create their own little islands.

    I am a protestant, and I have been to many different churches in the past ten years.

    I was a Protestant for the better part of 10 years, but have, by the grace of God, become Orthodox.

    I do not claim to be of any denomination because every church I have been to has some belief I do not agree with.

    That would be the fundamental flaw of Protestantism, it is not the self that is the criterion of truth, but the Church. The self must humble itself in many things to the voice of the Holy Spirit in the Church. There is plenty of room in Orthodoxy for the self to manifest and to breathe, but it must be integrated into the communal life of the Church, it cannot remain isolated.

    I do not know much about the Orthodox church. I went to Vespers and an Easter service several years ago at a Greek Orthodox Church.

    Well, you went about it the right way. The only way to know Orthodoxy is to live it, which is the same as the only way to know Jesus Christ is to live with/in Him.

    One thing every protestant church I have been to including the Mormon church has in common is that everyone takes communion. I thought until recently that by taking communion you are accepting the teachings of the Bible and not neccessarily the beliefs of the church.

    Taking Communion is the most intimate and real way of uniting to Christ possible. It is the closest we can get to "God all in all" (1 Cor. 15, 28). It is living on His life, it is a transfiguring of our life into His. It is the "medicine of eternal life" as St. Ignatius says. Whatever has been made sick by the fall of Adam and Eve is healed in the Incarnation, and the Incarnation is available to us in Communion. For we eat and drink the Body and Blood of God.

    In Protestantism communion, is nothing like that, it is a man-made ritual without basis in Scripture and Tradition.

    The only church I have been to that did not allow everyone to take communion was the Baptist church I attend until I was 9. You could only take communion if you had paid your monthly dues to the church. In the protestant churches that I have been to there was no age requirement for communion. Most use grape juice and wafers like the Catholic wafers. Mormons use broken up pieces of sandwhich bread and water.

    It matters little what they use,.. They are not celebrating the Mystery of the Eucharist, and therefore they do not have Communion.

    IC XC,

    Grigorii
  • Wow greg, good stuff!!
    Id just like to add that ur right about protestant communion and how its just a man mad ritual. Protestants take communion as a "symbol" only. They have no real mass, so the wine and bread does not go through transfiguration. I dont get the point of taking communion if u think of it as a symbol and wont get you any closer to God. ???

    -Pete
  • A sacrament is a means of grace, and when I came to understand this, then it was easy to embrace the sacraments and to come to an understanding of salvation in the Orthodox Church.

    You touched my heart topper, when you spoke about the Holy Sacrament in the Orthodox Church in general and in the Coptic Church in specific in whom I adore and enjoy.

    In the Parable of the King, who gave a wedding feast for His Son, mentioned in the Gosple of St. Matthew chapter 22, The Lord gave us this wedding clothes, the new inner man, when we were baptized to His death, “ For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. “ Gal. 3:27

    Our Lord knew that our cloth, inner man, and our spiritual feet will get dirty by daily walk in this life, so by His Grace He instituted the Mystery of Repentance and Confession . As He washed the feet of His disciples before giving them the Holy Communion, He will wash our dirty spiritual feet when we humble our self in front of the priest in the Holy Sacrament of Repentance to have the absolution.

    Then come the most sacred time, which we can say the Holy of Hollies, when we partake of the Holy Communion, He washes us with the Blood of the Lamb.
    “And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:13-14

    This is the most intimate relationship that the bride will have with the Bridegroom, in the Mystery of the Holy Communion.
  • [quote author=Safaa link=board=4;threadid=267;start=90#msg30966 date=1120661280]


    From what you have said, Protestant are chaotic groups of hundreds of churches, each one with different belief.




    That is a great way to describe protestant churches.

    I guess I did not really understand what communion was. Most people I see in church seem to do and say things because of habit. They do what they are "supposed" to do or say what they are "supposed" to say. It is very disappointing to go to church and feel like I am in a make believe world. I do not go to church often anymore because I feel closer to Jesus in the privacy of my room than in church.

  • I do not go to church often anymore because I feel closer to Jesus in the privacy of my room than in church.

    I am no expert on anything, but don't you think that might be a problem? To stop going to church for that reason? It could be a trick from the devil, for he indeed is very clever...
    Peace and God Bless,
    Mansour

    PS. Sorry if I offended you AndieMichele, and also sorry for getting off topic
  • I am not easily offended. You are right. I know this is bad, but sometimes I forget about the devil.
  • Your name suggests it all, that you want to defend the church but by throwing back bible verses will not help you but worsen the situation, you need to have a little chat with them and talk things through
  • Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    This is a very interesting discussion.

    I have just been received into the Coptic Church after a lifetime as an Anglican. This was not a decision reached lightly, but it is one I am glad I made.

    In St. John 14:1-2 we are told: ' Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.'

    John 13:35, also seems relevant here: 'By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.'

    In 1 John 4:6-8 we are told: 'We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.'

    Having, as Coptic Orthodox Christians, the fullness of the Faith, is it not our duty to show this by the loving attitude we take to other Christians?

    As Our Lord Himself tells us in St. Luke 6:32 'But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.'
    He also tells us: St. Luke 6:35-36 ' But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
    Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.'

    There are many varieties of Protestantism, as there are of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and few, if any of us, can pronounce with confidence on what they believe. We can, however, show, in how we behave to others, that we are His disciples.

    In Luke 17:3-4, we are told: 'Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, `I repent,' you shall forgive him.'

    Those who scoff at the God-guided Coptic Orthodox Church with its great history and its witness of suffering, reveal only their own ignorance, and we should pray for them, and for their enlightenment. What we are not called to do is to imitate them - the only one we are called to imitate is Our Lord Himself.

    When I look at His Holiness, Pope Shenouda III, I see a great Christian leader, whose humility and holiness are his armour from God. We should, indeed, read what he writes - even as we should try to practice Our Faith in a way that allows us to show we are the disciples of the Incarnate Lord. Just because they show ignorance and prejudice, we, as Orthodox, should show love.

    There are many varieties of Church, but one of the things that strikes me in this long discussion thread is that no one of them has a monopoly on showing Christian compassion and love. We are not Pharisees, and we do not thank God that we are not like others.

    We are all sinners - and those of us who are in the first-class spiritual hospital of Orthodoxy need His Grace just as much as the rest of the human race.

    In Christ,

    John

  • The mistake of the Protestant theology is the leaving of the teachings of the church fathers. There is a disrespectful attitude towards the idea of a church "father" because they believe they are all fathers (making new and illogical interpretations of versus in the Bible).
    With other churches continuing in the belief of the church fathers, they possess a better understanding of Jesus Christ because they have spent alot of time with Him.

    This is probably a good analogy of what the protestants are doing: It is like having all the information about biology available to you in text books, but you decide instead to find out all these things through your own experiments (without having a clue about what in the world you are doing). Doing this, they don't give themselves the time to gain a better understanding, but only gaining a basic understanding (maybe not even that).
    Reading the Bible AND the church fathers' teaching is essential to gain a deeper undertsanding of Jesus Christ (or we would never improve).
  • [/yeeah i agree we are the complete opposite. we are kinda closer to catholic but i say orthodoxy is the best. rite. it is more strict. color]
  • Dear Mahraeel,

    Good point. Of course, since the Orthodox Church has never added to the Faith once received, it is easier to see other denominations against the standards it sets.

    One of the great and distinctive marks of the Coptic Church is its witness as a Church of the Martyrs. It has not raised its swords against others, and it has turned the other cheek rather than resort to violence; its faithfulness to the word of the Lord is a sure sign of who it serves.

    That does distinguish its spirit from both Protestants and Roman Catholics, both of whom have, in the past, thought it fit to resort to violence as a means of spreading the word. Melkite Christianity, too, bears the marks of its imperial past, although it too has suffered greatly in more recent times. The Copts have suffered and yet remained faithful to their Risen Lord; that is a wonderful witness.

    The Roman Catholics have added matter to the Faith once received; they have done so for the best of motives and out of the belief that what has been added was an outgrowth of what was always there. This is an entirely understandable point of view; it happens to be one that the Orthodox do not share. There are some things, such as the Immaculate Conception, which if understood in a particular way impacts upon the economy of our salvation, and with which we would strongly disagree; our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters might, however, say they understand it in a way which does not so conflict. But with all respect to a great world-wide Church, such arguments do rather show the danger of adding things to the Faith; it can lead to disputes which can shake the faith of the layman and woman. Orthodoxy gets on just fine without such complications; nothing has to be explained away.

    Our Protestant brothers and sisters also bear a great witness in the world to the Faith. They took away many of what they saw as accretions to the Faith and went back to the Bible; but they have, sometimes, been forgetful of the Fathers - although, again, some Protestants have 'rediscovered' them; as we never forgot them, and never added anything to the Faith, we were in the fortunate position of not needing a reformation.

    The sadness was that the Orthodox Churches were not known to the western reformers. The Great Church at Constantinople was in Ottoman captivity; the Copts were becoming an increasingly persecuted minority in a Muslim world, as were other non-Chalcedonians; and the Russian Orthodox was the Church of a backward, semi-asiatic power on the edge of Europe. It was sad because some of the Protestant reformers did indeed pick up elements of Orthodoxy in their studies and their zeal; but they did not have the fulness of the Faith.

    So, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, let us show every respect to all Trinitarian Christians; we all worship the Triune God, of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But if we see the Church as a hospital for the spiritual sickness of this world, then we believe that the Orthodox Church has the best doctors, the best consultants and the best treatment for our ills; that does not mean that other Churches are no good - of course they must be; it just means that when you are in the best hospital two things follow: you don't want to leave it; and, out of love for your fellows, you want everyone else to enjoy what you do.

    I hope that is helpful.

    In Christ,

    John
  • THis is interesting as I was just reading a small biography on C J Lewis.
    He was born into a protestant family in Belfast. When he came to the UK, he became friends with Catholics, and his faith developed immensely. He was literally writing stories to evangelise. However, one thing he mentioned was , whilst growing up as a protestant kid in Belfast, going to Church every sunday was just a witness or a demonstration that 'we are not Catholic'.

    I see that often. Many protestants seem to have this "complex" - "we are not catholics". They might as well call their church "non Catholic denomination" or the "Anything but Catholic House of God". I'm sure that the feud between the two will dissolve sooner or later, and from what i've seen , many are already coming to Orthodoxy. We have the apostolic faith, MINUS the political abuse associated when a religion is in the hands of a super-power.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=267.msg71079#msg71079 date=1179505139]
    I see that often. Many protestants seem to have this "complex" - "we are not catholics". They might as well call their church "non Catholic denomination" or the "Anything but Catholic House of God". I'm sure that the feud between the two will dissolve sooner or later, and from what i've seen , many are already coming to Orthodoxy. We have the apostolic faith, MINUS the political abuse associated when a religion is in the hands of a super-power.


    well that the bigest reason for the reformation. the Catholics controled everything back in time and added to much incorrect things in the faith that the people became tired of this. and also becasue of the catholics, a lot of people moved to the "New World", now called the Americas after Columbus rediscovered it. they were tired of the rule of Catholics.
  • It is sad that just at the time when western Europe was beginning to question some of the things added to the Faith by the Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy was out of reach because of the fall of Constantinople in 1453; this meant that the Protestants had to try to reinvent what they thought of as the original Church - when it was still there all along - but in captivity.

    Ironically, in the Counter-Reformation, the Catholics dropped a lot of the things which the Protestants had objected to in the first place, but by then it was too late for reunion.

    But, in our time, we have a better chance - if we will listen to His words.

    In Christ,

    John
  • I'd just like to say that the protestant Church was conceived , not from any apostolic hand as with the catholics, nor orthodox, but as a retaliation of an apostolic church directed by Popes , bishops and priests.

    On the one hand, it does sound very immature to go and do "your own thing" because your fed up of priests , bishops and popes abusing their power, and yet, on the other hand, i do kind of understand that.

    A lot of people deify the clergy. We even have this problem in the Coptic CHurch. They treat priests as gods. When these 'gods' then make human mistakes, it becomes unbearable to pray a mass with them. How can u do that?? So, what was the answer? Protestantism: to have a Church where there is NO hierarchy , or where priests , bishops and popes exist that can "throw" their weight around.

    I totally understand that. But this is not the answer. The answer is to not mess with the men in black (MIB), but at the same time, don't let them get away with something wrong. There is no system in our Church at present to go and "discipline" a priest / bishop/ archbishop for doing anything wrong. If we went to the Pope and told the Pope that a priest was "abusive" towards someone (say, he shouted too much and was aggressive), the result would be what? That priest would be sent to another CHurch. There needs to be a system of reconciliation between the members of the hierarchy and members of congregation WITH the hierarchy. Having a hierarchy is pointless unless they use this power/position to make peace between others. What i find in reality is that there is favouritism between a priest and his superior bishop. THis is what a catholic priest said to me... and i noticed this 1000's of times also in the orthodox church.

    Even between the clergy there seems to be some antagonism. THere has to be a process in place that's so transparent amongst everyone where respect and love have to be flowing amongst all the clergy. Im sure they are all good people, but if there are problems between them, all that happens is further bickering.

    For example: what should happen if i have a complaint agaisnt a bishop? Let's say he did something that annoyed me? I should be able to go to his senior and complain. What happens is this: in the Coptic Church, no one is available to be responsible for someone under them. The same with the catholic Church. What happens is this: A priest told me he was ok with adultary. How can I complain for hearing this??? I can't. Who is his bishop? And complaining without a system in place means that whatever u do/say/or complain about, will be brushed aside.

    Forgive me if this sounds too personal, but i totally see the perspective of the protestants - however, they are losing on sacrements. A priest / bishop / pope etc are of an apostolic lineage which means that they can administer sacrements.
  • Dear Vassilios,

    You do, indeed, express some of the frustrations that led towards Protestantism.

    Some Protestants, such as the Anglicans (many of whom would deny that they are Protestants) took the view that they were trying to 'clean up' the Catholic faith; the problem was that they nearly all threw out too much, and have ended up with the Faith minus some of the things Our Lord left us. However much they may not agree, the early Church had bishops and sacraments, and if the Protestants do not then, at best, they can only come close to what He wanted - although they do much good in the world and have a sincere personal belief in Christ as Saviour. Only He knows how He regards them, and who am I to make any adverse judgements?

    Priestly authority can be a problem in any Church - one only has to see what the Roman Catholic Church has gone through with problems such as child abuse. But we have to remember that our priests also have a big problem - US. If we all try to live in the spirit of Him who died that we might all have life, things would be better - and that, after all, is what we should all be trying to do!

    In Christ,

    John
  • hi peoples
    wow this topic is so huge....take days to read everything and do the research
    but i totally agree wit waht u just said  vassilios. if one goes back and reads the history of protestanism; all i can say those were evry dark times very very. this action that was taken be the resposible was as it seemed the only light at that time. perhaps i would have followed in the same footsteps. but i certainly think that the currwetn state of waht has become is not good. i doint think would wondered away from the faith in sacrements. and church cannons. people in service can fall and get on the wrong track and the congregation should be strong enough to bring about the right changes not embrace the wrong. unfortunately such acts and worse was happening back in the days of the reform. and yes we the othodox werent there.
    also as u said vasilios there are such loop hole with in the catholic and the orthodox churches as well. transparency is not common and diffcult. that is something that the chrch has to improve on. and i think it is the congregation and the clergy of tommorow that can bring those changes.
    as much as it is sad to look at the protestant orgainsation and there christainity we ourselves have much falling to account for but we cannot loose hope and should look towards the unity perhaps not at the higher ranks then at the lower level. wit our freinds and neighbours, living a life in the footsteps of the saints will bring light to this people. may God have mery on us
  • I think today that the word "servant" has lost its meaning. Becoming a priest/bishop/archbishop is now a prestigious event and it may "get to their heads. So what is needed??

    Well... they should not forget that they are there to serve the flock, never their own egos!!

    How can this be achieved? I have the perfect answer:

    In a system where there exists a hierarchy, there needs to be quality control management: improvement, rewards, and progress reporting:

    The Church should have, once a year, evaluations. These should be in the form of evaluation forms. The congregation has the right to fill these in. They can praise the works of the clergy, and can also critcisie their works. This is always submitted to their head bishop. ANd the bishops should also be evaluated according to their acts: what have they done, who have they pleased, who have they served, how are they doing in their service. This is important. These evaluation forms should be submitted once a year and given to the Pope or to the senior of the person being evaluated.

    THe form should have the following questions (OBLIGATORY)

    * Are you generally satisfied with the performance of .....<< name of clergy >>


    * What improvements do you suggest for <<< name of clergy >> to become more effective in his ministry??


    * Has this man done ANYTHING wrong in the past year that you'd see as being immoral??

    These questions are sooo important. The church should adopt an evaluation process. It would be best for the congregation to write such a form, submit it, and STAY in the Church, rather than to be sooo sad and frustrated at the behaviour of a priest/bishop etc that they no longer wish to attend the Church! Furthermore, these questions are spiritual! If you purchase ANY literature on how to confess, they ask you to ask yourself these same questions. Have u upset anyone in the past? Have you broken any commandments (whether by thought/act/willingfulness/unwillingfulness) etc... what better way than to ask those whom directly are in contact with u.

    Priests/bishops/monks etc can literally get away with murder because the hierarchy is usually biased and favours saving their face (the face of their subordinates or peers) rather than actually  improving their service towards the congregation.

    IF TRULEY THE PRIESTS / BISHOPS /MONKS were REAL servents they'd welcome criticism such as this. BOTH POSITIVE and NEGATIVE!!

    When a monk is made into a bishop or becomes a senior monk: ON WHAT GROUNDS??!! What have they done?? who is to know?? its only done in private. Its the image that they give to their peers that they are holy. No one would be any the wiser. This is sad.

    ALso, how can we thank and show that a monk should be promoted to a bishop unless we have this. Most good works (IF THEY ARE GOOD WORKS) go quietely.. they are hidden... but we , who are recipients of "good acts" should at least be thankful to go and mention it.

    ALso, there are some things sooo embarassing to tell a monk/priest/bishop to their faces and people stop going to Church because they can't cope with that person's problem, and they can't tell him so as not to embarrase him. For example, there is a monk who is the sweetest man ever, yet he cannot speak French. When he speaks, its best he doesnt speak. Although we love him, if he prays the mass in French, there's NO need to even attend if u are french speaking, so what happens is we no longer attend his mass if its in French. We don't understand a thing! Yet, he is a loveable man.

    If we had an evaluation form, we could write and say :"He is a wonderful and holy man, ready to serve anyone, BUT the only improvement i have is that he purchases cassettes to improve his french, as this needs to be taken seriously".

    If this priest's senior bishop read this form, he would be the perfect one to tell him to improve his french. As a congregation , it would be very rude to tell him that.

    It would be like this: my boss telling me to improve my knowledge where I'm weak is not the same as the customer telling me. You see???

    I think if the catholic AND Orthodox churches did this, it would be great. The clergy would never forget that they are SERVANTS of the flock, and flock was not created to serve the clergy, and at the same time, they can only improve in their spiritual life as a result. Its a very VERY good sign of someone's spiritual level on how well they accept criticism also!!

    We should suggest this process to be incorporated.


    [quote author=karas7 link=topic=267.msg71147#msg71147 date=1179643351]
    hi peoples
    wow this topic is so huge....take days to read everything and do the research
    but i totally agree wit waht u just said  vassilios. if one goes back and reads the history of protestanism; all i can say those were evry dark times very very. this action that was taken be the resposible was as it seemed the only light at that time. perhaps i would have followed in the same footsteps. but i certainly think that the currwetn state of waht has become is not good. i doint think would wondered away from the faith in sacrements. and church cannons. people in service can fall and get on the wrong track and the congregation should be strong enough to bring about the right changes not embrace the wrong. unfortunately such acts and worse was happening back in the days of the reform. and yes we the othodox werent there.
    also as u said vasilios there are such loop hole with in the catholic and the orthodox churches as well. transparency is not common and diffcult. that is something that the chrch has to improve on. and i think it is the congregation and the clergy of tommorow that can bring those changes.
    as much as it is sad to look at the protestant orgainsation and there christainity we ourselves have much falling to account for but we cannot loose hope and should look towards the unity perhaps not at the higher ranks then at the lower level. wit our freinds and neighbours, living a life in the footsteps of the saints will bring light to this people. may God have mery on us

  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=267.msg71148#msg71148 date=1179647668]
    How can this be achieved? I have the perfect answer:
    In a system where there exists a hierarchy, there needs to be quality control management: improvement, rewards, and progress reporting:
    The Church should have, once a year, evaluations. These should be in the form of evaluation forms. The congregation has the right to fill these in. They can praise the works of the clergy, and can also critcisie their works. This is always submitted to their head bishop. ANd the bishops should also be evaluated according to their acts: what have they done, who have they pleased, who have they served, how are they doing in their service. This is important. These evaluation forms should be submitted once a year and given to the Pope or to the senior of the person being evaluated.

    THe form should have the following questions (OBLIGATORY)
    * Are you generally satisfied with the performance of .....<< name of clergy >>
    * What improvements do you suggest for <<< name of clergy >> to become more effective in his ministry??
    * Has this man done ANYTHING wrong in the past year that you'd see as being immoral??


    first before i say anything i'll ask....is this one of your jokes Vassilios.
    if not, here is my answer:
    this 'evaluation' would not do anything. you're saying that lets leave our head, Jesus, working underhim the Pope, and put a system for judging clergy, the men of God. you're saying that lets create a ruling system in our church which will change our religion totally. right now....what ever you said is the same thing that a writter, a muslim to me specific, said to HG Bishop Morkos in an interview about George Bibawy and all the inccedent.
    Let just say this:
    - Since when clergy act like gods or not be respected...they must get their respect as they have thew power to retain sins and loosen them.

    - Since when the congregation knows what right for themsleves of their church. yes right now HH Pope Shenouda lets people to choose their priest but that doesn't mean that person is really chosen from God.

    - ANd Since when we judge anyone...clergy which are men of God, or any one else.


    These questions are sooo important. The church should adopt an evaluation process. It would be best for the congregation to write such a form, submit it, and STAY in the Church, rather than to be sooo sad and frustrated at the behaviour of a priest/bishop etc that they no longer wish to attend the Church! Furthermore, these questions are spiritual! If you purchase ANY literature on how to confess, they ask you to ask yourself these same questions. Have u upset anyone in the past? Have you broken any commandments (whether by thought/act/willingfulness/unwillingfulness) etc... what better way than to ask those whom directly are in contact with u.

    am sorry i have to disagree with the 'STAY in the Church.' if anyone lack faith in the church, or it's clergy members....it his falte not other...including clergy members. yes the clergy will run after them to try to bring them back, since they will be judged for every lost soul.

    i personaly believe that any one who leaves the church for something like this, is not worthy of the blessing and the grace that is granted to them.


    Priests/bishops/monks etc can literally get away with murder because the hierarchy is usually biased and favours saving their face (the face of their subordinates or peers) rather than actually  improving their service towards the congregation.

    lol, you're telling me that for the past 20 centuries, or may be 19... bishops have been leading their flock wrongly. look at the coptic churchs today. would you ever belive that there would be atleast a 100 priest in the US, thousands in Egypt, hundreds outside egypt. if they were really sinning, would God really prosper in them or would even let them become priests.

    IF TRULEY THE PRIESTS / BISHOPS /MONKS were REAL servents they'd welcome criticism such as this. BOTH POSITIVE and NEGATIVE!!

    what are you talking about. do u see any bishops running after you with a stikk to hit you for saying something wrong to them.............................


    When a monk is made into a bishop or becomes a senior monk: ON WHAT GROUNDS??!! What have they done?? who is to know?? its only done in private. Its the image that they give to their peers that they are holy. No one would be any the wiser. This is sad.

    it's sad that you don't trust the powere of Christ and His men He left n earth to lead the flock to heaven.


    ALso, there are some things sooo embarassing to tell a monk/priest/bishop to their faces and people stop going to Church because they can't cope with that person's problem, and they can't tell him so as not to embarrase him. For example, there is a monk who is the sweetest man ever, yet he cannot speak French. When he speaks, its best he doesnt speak. Although we love him, if he prays the mass in French, there's NO need to even attend if u are french speaking, so what happens is we no longer attend his mass if its in French. We don't understand a thing! Yet, he is a loveable man.

    you said it, he's a lovable man. not everyone is the same, and not everyone is perfect.


    If we had an evaluation form, we could write and say :"He is a wonderful and holy man, ready to serve anyone, BUT the only improvement i have is that he purchases cassettes to improve his french, as this needs to be taken seriously".
    If this priest's senior bishop read this form, he would be the perfect one to tell him to improve his french. As a congregation , it would be very rude to tell him that.

    the pope is the father of bishops, and bishops are the fathers of priests, and priests are the fathers of deacons, servants and the rest of the congregation. does your father (bilogical) evaluates u every month or do you do that to him?!!!!!


    to me it's just sad how people get so libral when they get outside of egypt. not talking specificly about anyone but in general. come to the US, no one can control the poeple.......just sad to see this going on now in our life time.
  • Mina,
    No. I was dead serious. This discussion is about protestantism. Isn't it!? It developed because a few certain people were fed up of the abuse of power by priests / bishops and popes. Had an evaluation system been in place, where people could complain/congratulate and even thank the clergy this would have helped.

    Look. I know a story where a priest (a coptic priest) insulted a woman. What he said was very hurtful. Perhaps he didnt mean it, perhaps he did... I don't know. ALl i know is that he upset her. She went to Church, but to a different one. She became catholic. Now u can argue all u want that she is weak.. but I TOTALLY disagree. This is a woman who wants to live in peace!!!! Had she had the chance to complain DISCRETELY and let his seniors know that he was abusive, she may have stayed in the Church.  I know 1000's of cases like this...

    People want to live in peace with the clergy.. but how if everytime they approach a priest to tell them their revendications, they are brushed away with the excuse :"I'm a priest, how dare u talk to me or criticise me?!".

    So, people stay offended... there is NO dialogue. Its a stale relationship.

    It was my suggestion, but if u disagree - fine.. but I wasnt joking at all.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=267.msg71218#msg71218 date=1179785008]
    Mina,
    No. I was dead serious. This discussion is about protestantism. Isn't it!? It developed because a few certain people were fed up of the abuse of power by priests / bishops and popes. Had an evaluation system been in place, where people could complain/congratulate and even thank the clergy this would have helped.

    first technicly speaking it was from the Catholic political control taht effacted us copts 2. spiritually speaking, where is the faith in Christ. in any trebulations inside or outside the church.


    Look. I know a story where a priest (a coptic priest) insulted a woman. What he said was very hurtful. Perhaps he didnt mean it, perhaps he did... I don't know. ALl i know is that he upset her. She went to Church, but to a different one. She became catholic. Now u can argue all u want that she is weak.. but I TOTALLY disagree. This is a woman who wants to live in peace!!!! Had she had the chance to complain DISCRETELY and let his seniors know that he was abusive, she may have stayed in the Church.  I know 1000's of cases like this...

    please tell me about the cases and and the place they live and if it was really that serios. trust a person wont harm any other for no reason. especialy a priest.

    People want to live in peace with the clergy.. but how if everytime they approach a priest to tell them their revendications, they are brushed away with the excuse :"I'm a priest, how dare u talk to me or criticise me?!".

    well again. lisdt cases...tell me what priest do wrong.....tell me if they are wrong no the people themselves. again, i know that goes back to the lack of faith o people. u urself said below that it was immature to just begin ur own church of nothing.


    It was my suggestion, but if u disagree - fine.. but I wasnt joking at all.

    just sad.................................................
  • Well Mina,
    I can only speak of the cases that im aware of. they were very serious.

    Several cases were enormous.  Minor ones were just where the priest's personality irritated the congregation.

    Had an evaluation process been in place, things could have been stopped.

    OK. Imagine that I was a bishop, and I received evaluation forms concerning a priest under me that mentioned the following:

    * He's very helpful, and kind, but he could improve on his French.

    I'd QUICKLY make sure this priest learnt French. Simply because the next year's evaluation, it will most likely say

    * He's very helpful, but we can't pray with him as we don't understand arabic, and he cannot speak French!!!


    Also, for example:

    * The priest is very knoweledgable, but he talks a lot about himself. This isnt a problem except that it can embarrass us and it takes ages for him to finish a conversation which is too time consuming.

    This is a good example. If I was his bishop, or spiritual director, i'd be asking myself why he's talking about himself. This is really important. Is he trying to get a promotion? Is this the way? To flatter yourself?

    This is my point of view. I truly stand by it... there should be an evaluation process, and frankly speaking, had there been an evaluation process in the Catholic Church, the protestant Church would have had NO valid excuse to exist. They'd have seen results.



    [quote author=minagir link=topic=267.msg71219#msg71219 date=1179785595]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=267.msg71218#msg71218 date=1179785008]
    Mina,
    No. I was dead serious. This discussion is about protestantism. Isn't it!? It developed because a few certain people were fed up of the abuse of power by priests / bishops and popes. Had an evaluation system been in place, where people could complain/congratulate and even thank the clergy this would have helped.

    first technicly speaking it was from the Catholic political control taht effacted us copts 2. spiritually speaking, where is the faith in Christ. in any trebulations inside or outside the church.


    Look. I know a story where a priest (a coptic priest) insulted a woman. What he said was very hurtful. Perhaps he didnt mean it, perhaps he did... I don't know. ALl i know is that he upset her. She went to Church, but to a different one. She became catholic. Now u can argue all u want that she is weak.. but I TOTALLY disagree. This is a woman who wants to live in peace!!!! Had she had the chance to complain DISCRETELY and let his seniors know that he was abusive, she may have stayed in the Church.  I know 1000's of cases like this...

    please tell me about the cases and and the place they live and if it was really that serios. trust a person wont harm any other for no reason. especialy a priest.

    People want to live in peace with the clergy.. but how if everytime they approach a priest to tell them their revendications, they are brushed away with the excuse :"I'm a priest, how dare u talk to me or criticise me?!".

    well again. lisdt cases...tell me what priest do wrong.....tell me if they are wrong no the people themselves. again, i know that goes back to the lack of faith o people. u urself said below that it was immature to just begin ur own church of nothing.


    It was my suggestion, but if u disagree - fine.. but I wasnt joking at all.

    just sad.................................................
  • hi guys
    i agree the fact that there should be some sort of evaluation process or pwer in place that allows the congregation to make improvements as well at least gives the members of the congregation a voice in discretion that allowes evaluation of the clergy and preists and so forth. this does not mean that the order of things are not going to be in place like matters of faith and final judgment of the pope but rather it gives the ideal power to lowest of the people in the command chain to voice their words into action against things that are not being done as accordingly they should.
    it is also a very excellent way to make improvments.
    in the catholic when the spit happened there was so much corruption and sin happening by the people in higher palces that minor priests or congregations that wanted not to be part of corruption or failure in worship had no way to voice and bring into action waht already was ment to be. the only clear path that seemed to potray was to reject all this. unfortunaltey in doing so they made wrong choices as well

    it just so happens that in the orthodox we have not seen corruption to that extent and bascially failure of the system as happened in the west perhaps it is very diffcult for those in eygpt to understand this but i doint think anyone could ahve just gone on simply doing nothing and being part of this evil instead salvation it becomes very diffcult  when not just one but diocese after diocese is having such problems with thier monks,nuns,preists,clergy,deacons and even bishops and metropoliticans etc. i think some of the popes in that error had much sin to accout for....having such a system gieves people the power when necessary to BRING TO LIGHT SOMETHING that can be improved or OBVIUOSLY is wrong and needs correction and IF IT IS NOT ACHEIVED THEY HAVE THE POWER TO ACT TO CORRECT IT.

    I know this might seem impossible in our history of the church we have very very few instances where this could ahve happened but it has happened.
    perhaps not wit real bad situation but to some level yes.
    having a system is a SURE way to radicate these instances rather than loosing the flock
    classic example pope kirollis single handedly brought i think it was 7 or 8 monks who were banished form the monoastery back.

    another thing i think God has perhaps maybe allowed the protestinism to say florish to some extent cause he knows the weaknesses in hearts of man but i doint think it meant to go as far as it does today. surly the lord is preparing those in protestinism to return to the true faith and communion to him through the holy and apostalic chruch in either case i think he is preparing both the parties to accomadate each other. but thats just a thought
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=267.msg71220#msg71220 date=1179786729]
    I can only speak of the cases that im aware of. they were very serious.


    well that's what i hate ur talking about some cases and when generlizing everything about these cases everything goes wrong.


    This is my point of view. I truly stand by it... there should be an evaluation process, and frankly speaking, had there been an evaluation process in the Catholic Church, the protestant Church would have had NO valid excuse to exist. They'd have seen results.

    let me tell you that this wil never happend. if u still stand by it.....how about you go make your own church since this topic is about Protestanism!


    [quote author=karas7 link=topic=267.msg71224#msg71224 date=1179798737]
    hi guys
    i agree the fact that there should be some sort of evaluation process or pwer in place that allows the congregation to make improvements as well at least gives the members of the congregation a voice in discretion that allowes evaluation of the clergy and preists and so forth......................


    what the heck are you guys talking about. this is history from 20 cuntaries ago. our church will stay the same as it always was and shall be, from genuration to geuration and unto the age of all ages amen.
  • yareit balash, ya akh mina, nezam el 2afsh ely entah feeh dah. el mawdoo3 mish mestahel enek tetkalem bel 7ema2ya deh. e7na benetna2esh mona2asha feeha akhd w'3ata, akhod ra2yak w'takhod ra2y... el mawdoo3 mosh "meen ely hayeksab fel akher?!"
    w'ba3dein, entah betekalem ka2en el evaluation ely bey2ol 3aleiha el akh vassillious hatghayer taqaleed w'3adat wel dogma and doctrine of the Coptic Orthodox Church.  kenesetna zay el ful, ma7adesh 2al 7aga, laken mosh ghalath awo 3eib abadan eny e7na ne7asin fee nizam el keniesa. 

    fibo
  • Mina,
    Seriously, this isnt a way to speak in a debate. My opinion hasnt been rude. It was an idea. If u disagree, u r more than welcome to do so.

    What on earth is wrong with an evaluation process? I don't understand... it doesnt HAVE to be negative or against the priest. The priests are paid to do us a service, and we should be able to write to their seniors telling them that they've been remarkable.

    I guess Mina if u were to fill in this evaluation form you would always write positive things. Even me, i would too! but i'd mention things that need improving. Its these small things that lead to big problems. A priest not being able to speak French, NO ONE can DARE tell him to his face, and so what happens, NO ONE attends his mass!!!! That means church numbers will decline.

    There are 100000's of examples I know. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=267.msg71226#msg71226 date=1179799873]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=267.msg71220#msg71220 date=1179786729]
    I can only speak of the cases that im aware of. they were very serious.


    well that's what i hate ur talking about some cases and when generlizing everything about these cases everything goes wrong.


    This is my point of view. I truly stand by it... there should be an evaluation process, and frankly speaking, had there been an evaluation process in the Catholic Church, the protestant Church would have had NO valid excuse to exist. They'd have seen results.

    let me tell you that this wil never happend. if u still stand by it.....how about you go make your own church since this topic is about Protestanism!


    [quote author=karas7 link=topic=267.msg71224#msg71224 date=1179798737]
    hi guys
    i agree the fact that there should be some sort of evaluation process or pwer in place that allows the congregation to make improvements as well at least gives the members of the congregation a voice in discretion that allowes evaluation of the clergy and preists and so forth......................


    what the heck are you guys talking about. this is history from 20 cuntaries ago. our church will stay the same as it always was and shall be, from genuration to geuration and unto the age of all ages amen.

  • [quote author=filobateer link=topic=267.msg71234#msg71234 date=1179808892]
    yareit balash, ya akh mina, nezam el 2afsh ely entah feeh dah. el mawdoo3 mish mestahel enek tetkalem bel 7ema2ya deh. e7na benetna2esh mona2asha feeha akhd w'3ata, akhod ra2yak w'takhod ra2y... el mawdoo3 mosh "meen ely hayeksab fel akher?!"
    w'ba3dein, entah betekalem ka2en el evaluation ely bey2ol 3aleiha el akh vassillious hatghayer taqaleed w'3adat wel dogma and doctrine of the Coptic Orthodox Church.  kenesetna zay el ful, ma7adesh 2al 7aga, laken mosh ghalath awo 3eib abadan eny e7na ne7asin fee nizam el keniesa. 

    fibo


    Actually, I was thinking the exact same thing... he seems to think that this evaluation process will change our dogma?? or Church?? how??? The Church should have a process in place where a bishop, responsible of priests, can see how good his priests are and where they need improving...

    Why not?? what if a priest is TOOOOO kind he never complains.. and his congregation feel that he needs some assistance??? what then?? This isnt about giving complements, its about making EVERYONE's life more comfortable.

    Look: I know a case where a priest was driven out of a Church because he was aggressive to his congregation. The people sent letters and faxes to the Pope to get him removed. He was removed, and now prays in a little church twice a month.

    This could have been avoided. I hated to hear this sitatuion. If an evaluation process was in place, the bishop could have found a way to help this priest soon. He could have signalled to the congregation that this priest is currently learning assertive training, or some other skill to help him become less aggressive!!

    No one in the Church , and especially NOT me, wants to hurt or embarrass ANY bishop/priest/monk, even if they've hurt me.. NO ONE... so a system where we can signal our delights and our grievances should be in place...

    I dont understand what the problem is with this. I was saying that when u confess, u should see how u can improve yourself - what mistakes one does,, and improve on it - how would u know your mistakes? People have an image of themselves, and others have a different image of them, so the opinion of others is still important when trying to improve on your faults.

    WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT!

    And yes, our kanisa is ezayel FOL il hamdullilah... but it could always improve.

    Man, the HEAD deacon, for example, plays the cymbals TOO loud, RIGHT next to his mouth. EVERYONE is scared to tell him, and no one wants to offend him, so we let him do it... but he has NO IDEA how painful it is on our ears!!!!! The microphone is 2 cm away from the cymbals!!! And he has to therefore SHOUT to sing louder than the cymbals...

    Imagine this during Easter, Passion week, Good Friday , Christmas, Tasbeha time.. anytime ??? Its awful... NO ONE WANTS TO TELL HIM.
    What if 900/1000 persons wrote and said the following:

    Question : Has this servant achieved his goals?
    ----------------------------------------------

    Yes... he's been consistent in every mass, and has directed all the deacons very well..

    QUESTION : How can he improve: (put a number, scale 1 to 10 for priority, 10 being most serious)
    ---------------------------------

    He needs to play the cymbols quieter, or not play them at all. [mark 10]


    Believe me, NO ONE attends his mass.. we cannot pray with him, yet he is the MOST LOVABLE person you'd meet.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=267.msg71235#msg71235 date=1179813729]
    What on earth is wrong with an evaluation process? I don't understand... it doesnt HAVE to be negative or against the priest. The priests are paid to do us a service, and we should be able to write to their seniors telling them that they've been remarkable.


    all i have to say is let the Head of clergy evaluate and judge them as He please for He is the One who put them there. He wont be waitng for you to see what you wrote on a paper or not.
    I bilieve in the power of the Most High and His clergy more than the power of His poeple who really can change it.
    am done answering to this post. Vassilios, i proved my point and you still for some reason explain why those evaluations are right. good luck with that...........the post is all yours...like always.

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