Why do women submit to men?

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hi, can someone explain to me Ephesians 5:22-33: "women SUBMIT to your husbands". What exactly are they meant to do by submitting.. I mean, its great to know they'll submit to us, but what does that entail.

What good example , if someone can tell me, can illustrate where a woman must submit to her husband?

What if she doesn't submit, can she be punished for that?  lol ? OK.. perhaps not punished, but its in the Bible that they SHOULD submit to their husbands. I frankly, i couldnt agree more. I suggest we even get them to sign beneath this verse during the wedding night so they FULLY understand their rights.

All we have to do is love them like we love our own bodies. This is great. But they have to submit to us? Why? What happens when a woman submits to a man? What exactly is she submitting?

Also, how do u get your wife to submit to you?
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  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg70935#msg70935 date=1179255082]
    Hi, can someone explain to me Ephesians 5:22-33: "women SUBMIT to your husbands". What exactly are they meant to do by submitting.. I mean, its great to know they'll submit to us, but what does that entail.

    What good example , if someone can tell me, can illustrate where a woman must submit to her husband?

    What if she doesn't submit, can she be punished for that?  lol ? OK.. perhaps not punished, but its in the Bible that they SHOULD submit to their husbands. I frankly, i couldnt agree more. I suggest we even get them to sign beneath this verse during the wedding night so they FULLY understand their rights.

    All we have to do is love them like we love our own bodies. This is great. But they have to submit to us? Why? What happens when a woman submits to a man? What exactly is she submitting?

    Also, how do u get your wife to submit to you?



    did you read the part before that verse. the woman submit to the man as the church submit to Christ and as He is the head if the church, the man is the head of the wife.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=5324.msg70938#msg70938 date=1179255330]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg70935#msg70935 date=1179255082]
    Hi, can someone explain to me Ephesians 5:22-33: "women SUBMIT to your husbands". What exactly are they meant to do by submitting.. I mean, its great to know they'll submit to us, but what does that entail.

    What good example , if someone can tell me, can illustrate where a woman must submit to her husband?

    What if she doesn't submit, can she be punished for that?  lol ? OK.. perhaps not punished, but its in the Bible that they SHOULD submit to their husbands. I frankly, i couldnt agree more. I suggest we even get them to sign beneath this verse during the wedding night so they FULLY understand their rights.

    All we have to do is love them like we love our own bodies. This is great. But they have to submit to us? Why? What happens when a woman submits to a man? What exactly is she submitting?

    Also, how do u get your wife to submit to you?



    did you read the part before that verse. the woman submit to the man as the church submit to Christ and as He is the head if the church, the man is the head of the wife.


    Yeah of course Mina,
    I read that. but it still doesnt explain WHAT is she meant to do when she submits. What does submit in this context mean????
    What can we expect, as men, from a wife who submits to us?? This is really important because if u get married to a God fearing woman, she'll want to keep a cross check that she's following her duties as described in the Bible. So we don't take advantage of them, we need to know EXACTLY what submission entails??? WHAT IS SHE MEANT TO DO???

    Also, its clear that men, we are told to love them. Its easy. Im sure its easy to love your wife. We are also told to love their bodies. OK.. that's great... i think its just getting better and better for the XY chromosome group, but its just this deal is too good to be true. What is a wife meant to do to submit. Give me an example of where she must submit to her husband??
    Thanks!!

  • OK, look: God said women you should SUBMIT to your husbands!! Right? well, this is how I see it happening between a man and his wife:

    Wife: 'Coucou, darling, I'm starving... im going to eat something'
    Man: 'No - I don't think so'
    Wife: 'What do u mean you don't think so, I want to eat something!'
    Man: 'I said No -  I don't think soooo'
    Wife: 'Oh come on, all this submission stuff has gone a bit too far, hasn't it? Im starving to death!'
    Man: 'its in the Bible, woman!'
    Wife: 'But its in the Bible that you should also love me'
    Man: 'Just that very response makes me feel you are not submitting to me. I need 110% of your submission, and THEN, perhaps just then YOU CAN eat!'
    Wife: 'But we did this yesterday when I asked u to let me watch Friends on TV. U insisted on watching football.. i submitted to you then, and u watched football'
    Man: 'Yes.. that was your submision for yesterday, today is a new day, and there are new obstacles'

    Is this an example of submission. Sure, the man is JUST having fun, and perhaps teasing his wife in the above example, but ... still she should take it seriously.
  • ..........i think women should respect thiert hyusbands tlike they respect God, i think thats what it means

    EgY
  • i think u'll find the commandmants that are said in our coptic wedding Crowning Ceremony for each of the couples very understandable, here:

    For the Groom:
    Priest:
    My blessed son, may the grace of the Holy Spirit strengthen you to take unto yourself your wife, in purity of heart and in sincerity. Do all that is good for her. Have compassion on her and always hasten to do that which will gladden her heart.Take care of her as her parents did in love and in humility, remembering that you have been crowned by this spiritual and heavenly marriage and confirmed by the grace of God. Remember that if you fulfill the divine commandments which urge you to look after your wife. the Lord will bless you in all you do, because His blessing is enjoyed by those who live in harmony; He will grant you blessed children and a long peaceful life; He will bless you in this life and the thereafter.



    For the Bride:
    Priest:
    And you, blessed daughter and happy bride, you have heard what was commanded of your husband. So you must honor and respect him, do not disagree with him but increase your obedience to him over what was commanded many times. For you are now alone with him and he is responsible for you instead of your parents. So you must receive him with joy and cheer. Do not frown in his presence. Do not ignore any of his rights upon you and fear God in all your deeds with him. Because God the Most High commanded you to submit to him and obey him as you obeyed your parents. So obey him as our mother Sarah, in love obeyed our father Abraham, and used to address him "my lord". Thus God looked upon her obedience to him, blessed her, gave her Isaac in her old age, and made her offspring as the stars of heaven and the sand on the sea shore. So if you observe what we instructed you to do, and follow all the commandments, the Lord will support you and provide for your livelihood. Blessing will descend upon your house, and He will grant you blessed children who will fill your heart with joy.



    Anything else you need to know vassilios before you get married.....which i think is very soon.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg70943#msg70943 date=1179257323]
    OK, look: God said women you should SUBMIT to your husbands!! Right? well, this is how I see it happening between a man and his wife:

    Wife: 'Coucou, darling, I'm starving... im going to eat something'
    Man: 'No - I don't think so'
    Wife: 'What do u mean you don't think so, I want to eat something!'
    Man: 'I said No -  I don't think soooo'
    Wife: 'Oh come on, all this submission stuff has gone a bit too far, hasn't it? Im starving to death!'
    Man: 'its in the Bible, woman!'
    Wife: 'But its in the Bible that you should also love me'
    Man: 'Just that very response makes me feel you are not submitting to me. I need 110% of your submission, and THEN, perhaps just then YOU CAN eat!'
    Wife: 'But we did this yesterday when I asked u to let me watch Friends on TV. U insisted on watching football.. i submitted to you then, and u watched football'
    Man: 'Yes.. that was your submision for yesterday, today is a new day, and there are new obstacles'

    Is this an example of submission. Sure, the man is JUST having fun, and perhaps teasing his wife in the above example, but ... still she should take it seriously.


    sorry but i think ur example is a joke

    3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

    Note that the actions in bold are required of both the husband and wife, since they are both Christians and bound to obey the laws of Christ.

    21 submitting to one another in the fear of God. 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

    Again, both the partners are enjoined to submit to each other (including the husband to submit to the wife) before the specific command is given to the wife.

    submission is actually an act of love that grows out of strength if it is rightly understood. Today, in a very egocentric and power hungry world, submission is seen as a great evil. No one should be forced to submit to another, for that takes away their freedom. This has grown out of the harshness and the evils of men's dealings with one another over the centuries. But it was not meant to be so.

    To the Christian, your freedom cannot be taken away from you by anyone, ever. It dwells in your heart and in your personality and view of life, and no amount of prison bars or chains can destroy it. Out of that freedom, you make a free choice to love. You express that love through the act of submission. You submit to God because He loved you first and Himself became the most inspiring example of loving submission on the cross. You submit to your parents out of love for God and love for them. And you submit to your partner because you have already through marrriage made you whole life a gift to them. You submit your needs to theirs because their welfare is more important to you than your own. Hence in Ephasians 5, St Paul goes on to say:

    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

    In summary, when submission grows out of fear or coercion, it is an evil thing. But when it grows out of love freely given, it becomes one of the most beautiful things to adorn the life of a human being on earth.


  • Wow I don’t think it could not be in any better words then that. All the points hit the nail right on the head.

    I think the main aspect  of submission is love as in the love of Christ, the love of God, "for he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son to die ..........the idea of submission itself characterises the main commandment to love God with all ur heart and mind such submission is the fulfilment of this commandment but remember this is not worldly submission at all this is submission with the grace of the holy spirit but but above all it is done in the wisdom of and knowledge of God. Vassillous it doesn’t mean the wife has to submit to watching TV.

    A person cannot say that he/she doesn’t love me because he/she didn’t do this or that this submission is above that. this commandment was sort of spelt out for the women in the bible cause it is the first step that comes for a woman who is married in achieving the perfect commandment as mentioned earlier.

    Given the fact the husband himself is seeking the first utmost commandment himself otherwise it is useless because if she follows this blindly it will take her away from God. For instance a Christian man might say do this sin wit me this adultery or corruption she in the knowledge of God must not Go ahead with that at all.
    So what does she submit to?
    She submits to worship and contemplation of God. How so......through her husband. (apart from her personal endeavours) while her husband who constantly himself (should)seeks God thus he labours day and night at the church at the poor house in fasting in prayer in service she the wife is to submit to him by being on his side helping him uplifting his spirit working with him. fasting with him being the face that smiles when fasting is difficult or the fact her husband is away in service (of course in wisdom) she as a woman herself has much to do especially bringing up her children and perhaps Sunday school but apart from this her submission comes in with support and love of working wit her husband for the glory of God and nothing more.

    Not spending time in adorning her self or running after her central desires but rather submission to her husband who seeks God it a chain process, i do not think it is meant to be seen outside of that. thus in her even in her asceticism it would have to be in order as such that it works in perfect submission to her husband and thus obedience and love and thus God. In this manner she also grows in the main commandment of our Lord. Sure when the husband is on the wrong road the wife is not meant to submit to him. if we look at EVE she did not perfectly submit to her husband she herself brought him down to sin that is not submission her submission here was clearly to her self and her desire did she think where her husband ought to be and his submission. no. this is what she is not meant to do
  • Listen up folks, thanks for your responses, lakin - no one here has told me how a woman is meant to submit yet? What is she meant to do? Give me an EXAMPLE of how this manifests in daily life???

    From what minagir wrote, i see it that the priest tells this "blessed orthodox and happy bride" that the man is responsible for her as her parents were responsible for her. OK. So, it means also a sense of obedience as we are all obedient to our parents.

    I shouldnt have given that example cos it was a far fetched example (about watching tv and eating... ) as this quite a serious issue in fact ; you all know me by now, i m a bit of a joker - but focus on the issue here.

    She should be obedient to her husband because we are  now responsible for her as her parents were responsible for her. On the one hand, this is very loving and very kind that the Church sees us as responsible for her as her parents were. It means that the love we have for our wife is one of long suffering , giving and generosity. THis is because parents love their kids unconditionally, and give their life for their kids. However, all she has to do is smile at us. LOL. The priest tells her :"ALways smile for your husband!" - lol. I feel sorry for any man who's gonna marry a girl with a bad smile. That would be so annoying. lol . If she had a bad smile, the priest could tell her something else to do for her husband that she could be rather good at doing? I don't know...another talent?

    But... guys/gals  - the point is this : she has to obedient to us, but surely there are some girls here that are wondering why shouldnt we also be responsible for our husbands as his parents were responsible for him, and therefore he should be obedient to us (his wife) as we are now responsible for him.
  • Hello every1

    Vas i dont really have ur answer, but i thought i mite add a few things to stir the topic.

    Ok we know that husbands are to love their wives unconditionally and take care of them like their parents did. and wives are to submit to their husbands as they submitted to their parents. Vas ur example was far to extreme. I know u were joking but im sure some families would have a nazi husband like that somewhere in the world.

    The first example i can think of in our day to day lives is of a teenage girl going out and the parents saying "Oh NO, Where do you think your going dressed like that. go upstairs and get changed NOW!!" the girl would prob sook for a minute tell them its not fair but quickly change into another outfit before her friends arrive. If a husband said the same thing doesnt this mean she should submit to his request without argueing and causing a drama.

    But... guys/gals  - the point is this : she has to obedient to us, but surely there are some girls here that are wondering why shouldnt we also be responsible for our husbands as his parents were responsible for him, and therefore he should be obedient to us (his wife) as we are now responsible for him.

    The girls are gonna hate me for bringing this up but king Soloman, the wisest person to walk the earth said i have met thousands of women and not a single one was wise. i wish i can find the exact verse he says this in but its in Proverbs somewhere

    but wait it gets worse for the girls, Eve was a fool to eat of the tree and she made Adam fall with her. As punisment to the woman he said

    "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception" In pain you shall bring forth children: Your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you."
    - Genesis 3:16



  • [quote author=drumaboy link=topic=5324.msg70976#msg70976 date=1179311174]
    The girls are gonna hate me for bringing this up but king Soloman, the wisest person to walk the earth said i have met thousands of women and not a single one was wise. i wish i can find the exact verse he says this in but its in Proverbs somewhere

    he was comparing to his own wiseness. duhh.....the the wisest man who ever lived since God Himself granted his wisdom. also i think girls are more mature than wise.


    but wait it gets worse for the girls, Eve was a fool to eat of the tree and she made Adam fall with her. 

    and than Adam blamed on her, and she blamed the serpent. same mistake, you can't hold it on women. the man was supposed to take care of her and not let her even come to the tree. it's a 2 way relationship.


    As punisment to the woman he said"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception" In pain you shall bring forth children: Your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you."
    - Genesis 3:16

    and  than he said her seed, Jesus, will crush the head of the serpent. fixing their mistake.
  • Drumaboy,
    I totally agree with minagir. Women are equal to men. Adam should have had the good character to say sorry to God.

    I met many people, and i can say that many women i've met are very wise. SOme are dumb as anything, but it has nothing to with sexes being "wiser" than other sexes, it's just how people are...

    Wisdom anyway is defined as the fear of God. Its accessible to anyone who fears God, whether male or female.

    What is submission in marriage? This is question? How does this manifest itself here?



    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5324.msg70978#msg70978 date=1179315045]
    [quote author=drumaboy link=topic=5324.msg70976#msg70976 date=1179311174]
    The girls are gonna hate me for bringing this up but king Soloman, the wisest person to walk the earth said i have met thousands of women and not a single one was wise. i wish i can find the exact verse he says this in but its in Proverbs somewhere

    he was comparing to his own wiseness. duhh.....the the wisest man who ever lived since God Himself granted his wisdom. also i think girls are more mature than wise.


    but wait it gets worse for the girls, Eve was a fool to eat of the tree and she made Adam fall with her. 

    and than Adam blamed on her, and she blamed the serpent. same mistake, you can't hold it on women. the man was supposed to take care of her and not let her even come to the tree. it's a 2 way relationship.


    As punisment to the woman he said"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception" In pain you shall bring forth children: Your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you."
    - Genesis 3:16

    and  than he said her seed, Jesus, will crush the head of the serpent. fixing their mistake.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg70973#msg70973 date=1179306077]but surely there are some girls here that are wondering why shouldnt we also be responsible for our husbands as his parents were responsible for him, and therefore he should be obedient to us (his wife) as we are now responsible for him.

    why do you have to challenge everything. leave it as it is. give me couple fo hours to get out of school and i'll explian what is submission using the commandments i posted below, since you still challenge it.
  • Mina,

    Im NOT challenging it, but im trying to understand what submitting entails? Its important... u don't want to be in a situation where u have no idea what ur rights are once u are married?
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg70982#msg70982 date=1179319277]
    Mina,

    Im NOT challenging it, but im trying to understand what submitting entails? Its important... u don't want to be in a situation where u have no idea what ur rights are once u are married?


    ya habibi vassolios, if every single man or woman say that...NO ONE will get married. when ur old enough and when you live in teh real world for a while u'll learn on your own theses things. also like i said, i'll try to describe everything for you.

    also when i said challenging, i was talking about this part.

    but surely there are some girls here that are wondering why shouldnt we also be responsible for our husbands as his parents were responsible for him, and therefore he should be obedient to us (his wife) as we are now responsible for him.

  • Dearest Kerestina (and all other women here),
    Now, here are a few facts about this topic that I wish to point out. These are UNDISPUTABLE, and are facts.

    a) Men and Women are EQUAL in the eyes of God
    b) Men are not wiser than women and women NOT wiser than men

    c) In marriage, each have responsibilities towards one another. But these responsibilities are DIFFERENT.

    This is a fact. And we can just there and then talk about WHY they are different? Surely, one would think that being married these responsibilities should be totally equal. They are probably equal, but different.

    Women appear to have a responsibility to be obedient towards men.
    Men have a responsibility to love women as their parents loved them.

    Neither of the above is greater/less than the other, just different. But when we talk about women "obeying" their husbands, what's involved? What does it mean? Why do many Coptic women complain and disagree with their husbands???
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg70991#msg70991 date=1179331443]
    Dearest Kerestina (and all other women here),
    Now, here are a few facts about this topic that I wish to point out. These are UNDISPUTABLE, and are facts.

    a) Men and Women are EQUAL in the eyes of God
    b) Men are not wiser than women and women NOT wiser than men

    c) In marriage, each have responsibilities towards one another. But these responsibilities are DIFFERENT.

    This is a fact. And we can just there and then talk about WHY they are different? Surely, one would think that being married these responsibilities should be totally equal. They are probably equal, but different.

    theire diffrent because that's how our life completes itself. in our world taoday u can't have everyone being a doctor. if soo, than where are the engineers that will build offices for them....for example. people's personalty are not the same. every one defirrs so our world can servive.


    Why do many Coptic women complain and disagree with their husbands???

    that doesn't happend all the time. also a woman can't do every single thing a man would say. sometimes they have to think diffrent a little. also i think since they're coptic there is dafinitly some culture included. also may be they are not for each other (the husbend and wife).
  • Why do women submit to men? I was unaware that they did!

    INXC

    Anglian
  • [quote author=Anglian link=topic=5324.msg71019#msg71019 date=1179433741]
    Why do women submit to men? I was unaware that they did!

    is that a comment or a real question.
  • I'm not terribly sure; it was more by way of an observation - that is I had not noticed it myself - which is perhaps just me.

    INXC

    Anglian
  • women submit to ur husbands is one verse which most ppl (men, generally) read into quite often without exploring the rest of the assocaited verses
  • [quote author=kerestina link=topic=5324.msg71028#msg71028 date=1179442463]
    women submit to ur husbands is one verse which most ppl (men, generally) read into quite often without exploring the rest of the assocaited verses


    Well is it not a good time then to clear this issue up?
    What does submitting involve!? The advice given to the married couple is practical living advice. How they should treat one another. Their duties towards one another. This is important.

    So, tell me, practically speaking, how should a woman submit to her husband? PRACTICALLY!??
  • [quote author=kerestina link=topic=5324.msg71028#msg71028 date=1179442463]
    women submit to ur husbands is one verse which most ppl (men, generally) read into quite often without exploring the rest of the assocaited verses

    you're right. but that's why it's the Pauline Epistle of our wedding service.
    also am sure John, Anglian , would know the verses.
  • ok theres a GREAT SERMON about women submiting to men by father anythony messih.. under the title love and marriage i think its part 3 or 4..or something..

    i will get you the link ASAP..i think it will answer all your questions
  • THanks Why, please let me know what the link is. I'm looking forward to it.

    The way i see it is its unfair: The marriage sacrements favours the woman in fact.

    THe man has to love his wife as her parents loved her. The woman is NOT asked to love her husband AS he was loved by his parents. From this, I can only deduce that the love a father/mother has for their child is totally unconditional. They dedicate their lives for the happiness of their children. The love a child has for their parents is not the same. All they do is "obey" their parents, and their parents give them everything.

    For me, the CHurch is telling the woman :"Submit" to be spoilt rotten!!!

    This theory also is in line with what Saint Paul says about the man being the head of the woman as Christ is the head of the Church; that Christ served His Church. He died for her, He had mercy on her, He healed her... He was the head servant, not really the Head Master.

    I don't know why when English people read this, they get offended. THey somehow think the Orthodox Church is cruel. How can it be cruel? THe man is given a responsibility to be and act like Christ. The wife is given the responsibility to be and act like the Church. How on earth is this sexist??? Its so strange that they think this!!

    If both wish to act like Christ, then its fine, but then problems happen. Believe me, I know. My parents are very loving and love to give to one another. There is not one that loves to receive. They always think of each other. This is a problem. IM NOT KIDDING!! I mean, there would be less problems if one just accepted the love the other has to give that person. This is also in the Bible: Saint Peter did not wish to let Christ wash his feet. Christ said to Peter: "If u do not let me wash your feet, you have no part with me , Peter".

    For the life of me, I cannot see how any of this is sexist, and if the man has a good sense of humour, submission to him cannot only be a lifetime of giving and sacrifice, but also fun: "I said Don't eat!" lol

    THe fact that people WANT there to be equality in the way that both parties love one another it ruins the marriage!! How: i,e by this i mean that the man also submits to his wife to be spoilt by her, then this removes the purity of love between them from the relationship. It means that for them to say :"This is unfair, WE SHOULD BOTH SUBMIT TO ONE ANOTHER" means that they are going from Agapy love to Eros. Its not so pure.

    By this i mean that Aghapy, which is the highest level of love possible, is totally unconditional love. You give, and do not expect to receive anything. You are loved by totally unconditionally, whether u earn money, or not, whether u are ill or not, its unconditional. The 2nd level is Eros :where we get the term Erotic. Its a level of love which is "exact" - like for like. I give u EXACTLY as u have given me! I take from u as u have taken from me. Its VERY boring.

    Can you imagine if Christ said to Peter :"Peter, ok, i've washed your feet, now wash mine!". Is this what people want? Equality in replace of real love and affection???
  • Dear Vassilios,

    Thank you for this, there is a very great deal of wisdom in it; if we all did as this describes, the world would be a better place - and our relationships a good deal healthier.

    Part of the problem is that historically men have tended to abuse their position (and sometimes their wives) which has led, as these things tend to, to an equally unhelpful reaction in the form of modern feminism, which treats men as though they are all potential abusers.

    If men treat their wife in the way the Bible states, then they will deserve to receive what they will get in return; so many of our problems follow because we do not do as He says. Women in marriages with overbearing and dominating men have a miserable time of it; as do men in marriages with wives of similar tempers. If we all remember what you have described, we shall be better for it.

    In Christ,

    John
  • Oooohhh John,
    You are too kind. Thanks for your kind words. Frankly, I have to pray and I wish to be a blessing for my future wife. Im not sure. Im discussing this issue as I think many people have misinterpreted the "submit to your husband" concept, and as a result have used their own interpretation which is based on "equality", and without realising, have removed the beauty of love from a relationship. Rather than love being one of servitude, their "equality" interpretation makes the relationship literally into a business contract. That's exactly what it becomes. Our relationship with Christ is not one of a business contract. How can we pay God back for the sacrifice made on the cross??? What can we do??? Nothing. We can only be obedient and accept that we love Him SIMPLY because He loved us first and loved us unconditionally.

    I was talking to this asian french girl yesterday in downtown Paris, and she was saying that it would be nicer if both submitted to each other. That they were equal. I find this way so dry, so boring and so business like. The wife should love her husband, but she should address him as "my Lord" as Sarah addressed Abraham, her husband, and blessed her with Isaac in her old age. Now, for her to call Abraham "my Lord", means that what kind of love did Abraham show to Sarah his wife for her to want to address him as her 'Lord'??? So, by loving our wives as Christ loved the Church, the relationship becomes one of "true" love, not a business contract where we are expected to be loved because i've shown my wife love. We expect a return on the investment, and if we don't get it, we're not happy campers and we divorce to find someone else who can provide us with a descent ROI (return of investment) for the love we've shown to our partners. Its disgusting....

    Who wants this... life is too short to end up in a relationship that's a business contract because of the arrogance of Christians who prefer to have their own interpretation of Saint Paul's letter to the Ephesians rather than the Orthodox unaltered, unblemished, raw meaning of the word of God.



    [quote author=Anglian link=topic=5324.msg71066#msg71066 date=1179489369]
    Dear Vassilios,

    Thank you for this, there is a very great deal of wisdom in it; if we all did as this describes, the world would be a better place - and our relationships a good deal healthier.

    Part of the problem is that historically men have tended to abuse their position (and sometimes their wives) which has led, as these things tend to, to an equally unhelpful reaction in the form of modern feminism, which treats men as though they are all potential abusers.

    If men treat their wife in the way the Bible states, then they will deserve to receive what they will get in return; so many of our problems follow because we do not do as He says. Women in marriages with overbearing and dominating men have a miserable time of it; as do men in marriages with wives of similar tempers. If we all remember what you have described, we shall be better for it.

    In Christ,

    John
  • Dear Vassilios,

    Not at all too kind; I really do think that what you say here is very profound and very true. The problem comes from misunderstanding the terms being used. We all submit in obedience to the Lord - that does not make us some kind of slaves - we are most free when we are in Him.

    Western ideas of equality do indeed take all the richness out of a relationship - women are not (thanks be to Him) the same as men, except in so far as they are also God's children and to be treated as such; but they bring things to a relationship which no man can, and which men need; the same should be true in reverse. You make some excellent points.

    In Christ,

    John
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg71071#msg71071 date=1179492719]
    The wife should love her husband, but she should address him as "my Lord" as Sarah addressed Abraham, her husband, and blessed her with Isaac in her old age. Now, for her to call Abraham "my Lord", means that what kind of love did Abraham show to Sarah his wife for her to want to address him as her 'Lord'???

    The word 'Lord' her is not capitalized since it's not refering to our God..............................................................


    Who wants this... life is too short to end up in a relationship that's a business contract because of the arrogance of Christians who prefer to have their own interpretation of Saint Paul's letter to the Ephesians rather than the Orthodox unaltered, unblemished, raw meaning of the word of God.

    great declaration of our Orthodoxy.
  • Mina,
    Yes I agree. She wasn't worshipping her husband. And Abraham was not "The Lord", he was a lord, as in a dignitory.

    Thanks mina, actually - i just mistyped it from the marriage book.

    Secondly, we need a priest on this website to go and explain submission. I just came out that conclusion as it was the logical conclusion from Saint Paul's Epistle.. Abouna should go and clarify all this. Im not a sunday school teacher... im just trying to be sure of this stuff myself.

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5324.msg71089#msg71089 date=1179520626]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5324.msg71071#msg71071 date=1179492719]
    The wife should love her husband, but she should address him as "my Lord" as Sarah addressed Abraham, her husband, and blessed her with Isaac in her old age. Now, for her to call Abraham "my Lord", means that what kind of love did Abraham show to Sarah his wife for her to want to address him as her 'Lord'???

    The word 'Lord' her is not capitalized since it's not refering to our God..............................................................


    Who wants this... life is too short to end up in a relationship that's a business contract because of the arrogance of Christians who prefer to have their own interpretation of Saint Paul's letter to the Ephesians rather than the Orthodox unaltered, unblemished, raw meaning of the word of God.

    great declaration of our Orthodoxy.
  • hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    how did i degrade women????????????????

    all i did was quote 2 verses outa the bible that i thought related to the topic

    ppl on this thing misinterprete things out of context.
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