is this really true?

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
hi,

Abouna just said that if couple was married, and if either of them had an affair during marriage, and confessed about it, they SHOULD NOT, under any circumstances tell their spouse. He said that it was forgiven, so its in the past.

Is that normal? I don't think its right to hide such information from your other half... but is what he said the "official" response from the Coptic Church??

Are there any other priests here that can confirm/agree/disagree with this statement ?

Thanks

Comments

  • NO NO I strongly disagree with that. Its true that the sin has been forgiven BUT person must be truthful to the other and explain what happened and that its in the past which has been confessed.... One can NOT start marraige based on a lie/ hiding things. I disagree with this priest in the strongest terms and I doubt that this is the official church view... I think this view is his
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    While I am not a priest, I have to agree with DrFMFIssa.  I cannot possibly see how a member of the clergy could say something like that.  That would be like a person coming to a priest, confessing that they murdered someone, and the priest telling them not to go to the police to hand themself in because they just confessed their crime and it is forgiven and something in the past.

    Please pray for me.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69114#msg69114 date=1175005431]
    hi,

    Abouna just said that if couple was married, and if either of them had an affair during marriage, and confessed about it, they SHOULD NOT, under any circumstances tell their spouse. He said that it was forgiven, so its in the past.

    Is that normal? I don't think its right to hide such information from your other half... but is what he said the "official" response from the Coptic Church??

    Are there any other priests here that can confirm/agree/disagree with this statement ?


    This is statement is not right and is not official in our church. that goes back to the topic about hiding actions from the other couple. but on the other hand, there is no specific answer if this incedent happends. As someone mentioned in the other post before, the FoC and the Bishop (mostly Anba Pola....) decide what happends.
  • I don't think i explained it well:

    Abouna was saying that DURING marriage, if one of the partners committed adultary, confessed and repented for it, there was no need for him/her to tell their other half. (whilst they were married).

    In fact, the exact wording was somewhere along the lines of 'you should NOT tell your spouse after you've confessed it'.

    That worries me.

    You know what? THe way i see it is this: This was a monk saying that. If it was a married priest, Im 80% sure he'd be telling a different story.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69128#msg69128 date=1175027765]
    I don't think i explained it well:

    Abouna was saying that DURING marriage, if one of the partners committed adultary, confessed and repented for it, there was no need for him/her to tell their other half. (whilst they were married).

    In fact, the exact wording was somewhere along the lines of 'you should NOT tell your spouse after you've confessed it'.

    That worries me.

    You know what? THe way i see it is this: This was a monk saying that. If it was a married priest, Im 80% sure he'd be telling a different story.


    would you mind telling us who's the Priest?

    Monk or no Monk. He's a Priest.....a clergy member......he can't make up his own ways.
  • Mina,
    Come on, you really want to know? I was just hoping that if there's another priest here (online on tasbeha.org) who could say that its OK to discuss things in a marriage and you shouldnt hide things from your spouse, then that would be fine.

    I too feel what he said was bit strange - but he's actually a good monk. I shouldnt mention his name on here like that in this way. Its best at least i even double check with him.

    But like I said, monks will respond differently concerning questions between married couples than a priest who is married himself.

    What do u think?
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69130#msg69130 date=1175028532]
    Mina,
    Come on, you really want to know? I was just hoping that if there's another priest here (online on tasbeha.org) who could say that its OK to discuss things in a marriage and you shouldnt hide things from your spouse, then that would be fine.

    Well if you're only waiting for an answer from a priest, go get one. go ask a priest. am sorry, but i don't expect priests having the time to go online as much as we do. even thoo it would be great if they do.


    I too feel what he said was bit strange - but he's actually a good monk. I shouldnt mention his name on here like that in this way. Its best at least i even double check with him.

    But like I said, monks will respond differently concerning questions between married couples than a priest who is married himself.
    What do u think?

    well like i said before, he is a valid Priest. if not, he wouldn't be there praying in a wedding as you mentioned.


  • Mina,
    What's your problem? You seem agitated by the question?
    I thought we could come on tasbeha.org and ask questions to either have clarification, or to learn something new?

    Listen, Mina, its interesting to know that others here have the same opinion as mine - let's not behave this way. All priests are our fathers, and i don't like the idea of mentioning names like that. Its totally wrong.

    God bless all abounas.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69132#msg69132 date=1175029758]
    Mina,
    What's your problem? You seem agitated by the question?
    I thought we could come on tasbeha.org and ask questions to either have clarification, or to learn something new?

    Listen, Mina, its interesting to know that others here have the same opinion as mine - let's not behave this way. All priests are our fathers, and i don't like the idea of mentioning names like that. Its totally wrong.

    God bless all abounas.


    lol. what makes you hink i am agitated or anything. i am simply answering your question. if there is anything wrong or anything u don't like about what i say, please clarfy or even batter, report me to the admins. am sure they'll have a better judgement of what i say.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=5146.msg69134#msg69134 date=1175031529]
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69132#msg69132 date=1175029758]
    Mina,
    What's your problem? You seem agitated by the question?
    I thought we could come on tasbeha.org and ask questions to either have clarification, or to learn something new?

    Listen, Mina, its interesting to know that others here have the same opinion as mine - let's not behave this way. All priests are our fathers, and i don't like the idea of mentioning names like that. Its totally wrong.

    God bless all abounas.


    lol. what makes you hink i am agitated or anything. i am simply answering your question. if there is anything wrong or anything u don't like about what i say, please clarfy or even batter, report me to the admins. am sure they'll have a better judgement of what i say.


    Well.. u just seem a bit annoyed. Im not at all saying i dont like what u say, i even agree, just dont think mentioning names is right
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69136#msg69136 date=1175032888]
    Well.. u just seem a bit annoyed. Im not at all saying i dont like what u say, i even agree, just dont think mentioning names is right


    LOL, ya habibi ignored this after you said u don't want to.

    also i said:
    "would you mind telling us who's the Priest?"

    and i guess you minded. so khalas. i ignored that and responded normally.
  • this topic sounds familiar didnt someone previously bring up an issue around whether to disclose to your husband/wife your past???

    simply speaking if abouna is suggesting something he's obvioulsly reccomending it with reason and to benefit us in the long run and i think the question is why not disclose to your partner your sins rather than shud i or shudnt i reveal

    btw im not suggesting that i agree with the lack of disclosure but i jus feel that in the end ppl can only reccommend or inform you of helpful tips for living but the decision ultimately will lie in the couples hands.

    God bless and take care
  • THe only thing i'd keep from my wife is the price i paid for any little gifts i'd buy her; other than that, i'd hate to feel that im prevented from sharing anything.

    I mean, there are somethings that are dumb to share, like the time I nearly got expelled from Uni for hacking into their UNIX servers and logging everyone off. She'd probably find that boring anyway.

    But to go and commit adultary, and NOT to tell me! Well that's very unsociable.

    As I said, im 99% sure that because he's a monk, his reasoning is not the same as a married priest. Can someone ask this question to a married priest and let me know. Thanks
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69155#msg69155 date=1175104378]
    As I said, im 99% sure that because he's a monk, his reasoning is not the same as a married priest. Can someone ask this question to a married priest and let me know. Thanks

    again......................
    now all i have to say is this just sad.............
  • What is sad mina? I don't understand. Its a valid question. Im sure a married priest will respond differently.
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69158#msg69158 date=1175105385]
    What is sad mina? I don't understand. Its a valid question. Im sure a married priest will respond differently.


    As i have said before atleast 2 times:

    A Priest in our church is a valid priest. there is no rites and duties for a monk priest and a normal priest. It's one rank of priesthood. you can't saparate people in the same rank. they're the same.
  • Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    Our Fathers will advise us as they see best in our situation; the matters under discussion fall under the heading of pastoral advice rather than being a matter of doctrinal guidance. It might be that in a particular case a priest has very good reason to give the sort of advice mentioned, although I should be very surprised if it were advice given more generally.

    Indeed, I cannot think of a case where it would be advice that ought to be given, but then I am not a priest and do not know the circumstances in which it was given; so perhaps the sensible thing is to accept that the priest concerned had good reason to give it - but not to treat it, or any other pastoral advice as a general rule.

    Does that seem sensible to us?

    In Christ,

    John
  • i dont no u should ask maybe someo other priest.  i believe u should teelll  i meen would u feel comfortable not telling.  they shoould no!!

    p4m and mi weakness
  • Disclaimer: I am not a figure of authority and my opinion should know be treated as such.

    Having said that, I would have to disagree with the priest's opinion.  Christ told us to give Him what is His and to "ceaser" what belongs to him.  This is the same here.  When we sin, we sin against God.  We offend Him.  However, there are sins that are against others.  If I curse some one, I am cursing one of God's creation who was created according to His image and I am also sinning against my brother and offending him.  When I go and confess, I am absolved from the Holy Spirit and I am forgiven from God; I made ammends with Him.  However, I didn't make peace with the person I cursed and offended.

    When a Married man (whether he as married yesterday or for 20 years) committs adultry, he is sinning against God by breaking His commandment and he is sinning against his wife.  When he goes to confess, God will forgive him, but his wife has to have a choice.

    If he committed adultry BEFORE they got married, he can keep it from his future wife as long as he has repented and confessed about it.  But once they are married, he HAS to keep her informed. 

    Anglican,

    There is some doctrinal issue here, in the sense that we are sinning against our fellow man/woman.  You can't assume they will forgive you because God did. Κηφᾶς gave an example earlier about a person committing murder. while God may forgive him and accept his repentance and confession, the law must bring justice and he must confess his actions and take responsibilty for them as long as they affect other people here on earth.  Otherwise, it will be cheaotic to let things go.

    Anyway, Just my humble opinion.
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Excellent post.  I only disagree with one part of it, where you talk about a man who has committed adultery before he is married (or a woman for that matter) and does not tell their future spouse.  I would think that they should tell their significant other about this, but that is my own personal view.  At the risk of hijacking this thread, I won't go any further because I believe it was discussed in another thread.

    Please pray for me.
  • Dear Coptic Boy, Dear Κηφᾶς

    I would tend to agree with you both - whilst trying to keep open the possibility that a priest might, as in the example quoted, have some reason for giving advice which, on the surface, does seem odd.

    Adultery, like all our sins, has an effect upon others, and in no circumstances can it be other than condemned. Of course, since we are all sinners, it will occur if we are not on our guard against the temptations of the Evil One; in this society that temptation is one of his most powerful weapons.

    The priest who hears the confession has, as ever, a formidable responsibility, and we have to recognise that he will advise as he is guided. It is, however, hard to see how real repentance would not make the sinner also confess to his wife, whom he has wronged so badly, and ask her for forgiveness. If he does not do so, one would have to question how real the repentance was; a house built on the sand will not endure when the storms come.

    One question for us all is whether we offer our brothers enough support when they are tempted in this way? Often, if men fail to cultivate a respectful attitude to women, it can lead to the creation of a culture where falling into this sin becomes very easy. We, as men, should always remember to treat all women with the respect we bring to our own mothers, sisters and daughters; if we do that with our wife, we will not show her the disrespect in the first place, and will, by that, by kept from sin.

    Of course, if we just followed the teachings of the Church in the first place, none of us would be in the bad place of having to confess to such a sin. As we enter Holy Week 2007, let us remember in our prayers all those who are tempted, all those who have fallen, and all those in need of His redemption (and recognise where we come).

    In Christ,

    John

  • Guys,

    Although its something NONE of us here would do (eg hide adultary from our wives), i still feel that abouna is wise enough to give this advice - and has his logic and reasoning.

    I definately liked what Anglican had to say. I can't stand calling him "anglican", he seems more Coptic than a Coptic monk.

    did anyone at least get a chance to ask their FoC's?
  • [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5146.msg69250#msg69250 date=1175474657]
    Guys,

    Although its something NONE of us here would do (eg hide adultary from our wives), i still feel that abouna is wise enough to give this advice - and has his logic and reasoning.

    I definately liked what Anglican had to say. I can't stand calling him "anglican", he seems more Coptic than a Coptic monk.

    did anyone at least get a chance to ask their FoC's?



    listen;  to everyone's mind at rest, im going to ask abouna this question again.
  • Dear Vassilios,

    Please let us know what Abouna says - if you can.

    Your kind comment about me was far more than I deserve - but very kind. When I registered here I had no idea that He would lead me to be part of the Orthodox Church - hence my unsername; can that be changed, does anyone know, and know how?

    This has been my first Great Lent as part of the Orthodox Church - and I cannot thank Him enough for leading me to this Church, which so witnesses to the glory and the humility of Our Risen Lord.

    In Christ,

    John
  • [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    John,

    If you go to your profile and under the 'Modify Profile' menu at the left, there is an option that says 'Account Related Settings'.  You can change your name there.

    Please pray for me.
  • Dear Κηφᾶς,

    I will indeed pray for you. The advice you offer here, and elsewhere is most helpful - as. for example, you advice on how to change the name. I hope Vassilios will be more comfortable with the adaptation. Pope Gregory the Great is supposed to have said 'Not Angels but Angles' when he encountered some slaves from England; since I live in East Anglia, Anglian seemed a suitable username; I am grateful for your advice in this small matter - as I am in the larger matters on which you comment here.

    In Christ,

    John
  • Marriage should be based on complete truth and honesty.
    man or woman would feel betrayed if they find out later on that such sins as adultery were concealed.
  • [quote author=kerestina link=topic=5146.msg69568#msg69568 date=1176279333]
    Marriage should be based on complete truth and honesty.
    man or woman would feel betrayed if they find out later on that such sins as adultery were concealed.

    Hi, I agree.
    I feel embarrassed asking this priest again because... its a long story-  i heard it indirectly. He's probably one of the best priests i've seen.

    I hope those reading this thread realise that priests perhaps give advice according to a particular case/ person.
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