[quote author=SMS link=board=1;threadid=298;start=60#msg3093 date=1086460109] what are our values and morals supposed to be? why offer another point of view if we already know our own? i mean y take one saint and base ours upon his? the church always tells us to withstand temptations, even small ones and to say no to anything that goes against our own morals... so why bother? i still dont understand what the point of drinking is...
Hi SMS,
Your missing the point. This is a spiritual rule that your talking about not a dogma, it can change, if it was a dogma then st. Macarius wouldn't be a saint nor the monks in his monastry who gave the wine to him. The story points out that there was a time that people drank wine, this is not an isolated incident there are other similar stories in the desert fathers. I'm just using it as one source to prove that pre-islam egyptians drank wine.
My Bishop has told us there is nothing wrong with having a glass wine of with a meal.
You have to accept the rule is not an article of faith. It is a culture based spiritual rule not a dogma, it can change depending on the circumstances.
What I'm trying to say SMS is different horses for different courses. In Egypt they have not been drinking alcohol for over a thousand year and I don't doubt that that will probably never change. We now however have the added issue of having ecumenical brother who do drink alcohol and want to have communion in our churches. We need to accomodate them.
The reality is as time goes on we will always be coptic but we will be more american, canadian or australian and part of that is that people will embrace those cultures and they will embrace us.
You have chosen not to drink and that is a good decision but drinking itself is not wrong and perhaps can be practiced in moderation in very limited circumstances?
point taken... but i still feel that ur trying to australianize/canadianize/americanize/ or europanize the original coptic culture i mean i understand that we were forced to follow the whole islam thing wiht no drinking and keep the girls inside the houses, dont breath in ur cup, etc etc ETC lol but this is who we are now... right?
Yeah I can understand what your saying and its not a bad thing to abstain at all but we have to think about converts who may want to become orthodox things like this turn them into virtuous egyptians when they should really be virtuous americans or whatever, by doing this we add an extra burden to them (as you can imagine what I'm trying to say the alcohol thing is really just the tip of the ice berg).
I know that our Church doesn't work like that CS but remember the verse that says unless someone eats Christ's Flesh and Blood they shant enter the Kingdom of God.
Hello, you have a wonderful forum. I am not a Coptic Christian, but I am of the Syrian tradition from India. I am a first generation American also. Our culture also does not promote alcohol, but we know that most use, althought the adults like to be hypocritical. I do not believe alcohol use in moderation is a sin, ab-use always is a sin. Jesus did use wine, fermented grapes, in those days the wine would be pretty strong, but mixed with water to make a solution with about 10-12% alcohol. When we say the wine used in the Qurbono has alcohol, it does. After consecration into Christ's Precious Blood, the elements of wine remain. If we drink cupfulls of the Precious Blood, we will still feel the effects of the elements. For example, those with celiac disease (severe allergy to wheat) cannot consume the Precious Body, so they refrain and Father will give only Blood. To say alcohol remains in the elements is not a sin, because we know that the substance is Christ. We still have to use common sense. I agree with the posters that said alcohol in moderation is not a sin, rather it may be beneficial. If we choose not to listen to that advise, it is similar to those who refuse to admit smoking is harmful. We may think what we want based on cultural hangups or stubbornness, but the truth is the truth. Even Paulos Sleeha (St. Paul) instructed Titos (St. Timothy) to have a glass of win for his indigestion. Was Paulos instructing Titos to sin? no...neither was Christ. Let me know what the rest of you think. Again wonderful website, it's funny we were having the same kind of discussion on a Syriac message board, must be our culture so heavily influenced by Islam.
excuse me, I meant Timotheos, not Titos, I apologize. I was reading some of the arguments about not to drink because it could cause extreme drinking. I think that is a illogical argument. We do not ban or forfeit something because it MAY become abused. Freedom of speech has been abuse by people like Larry Flint, but we should not ban all speech. Sex is abused outside of marriage, but sex is not banned within. There is proper usage and abuse, proper use should be taught and promoted while ab-use discouraged.
What I am confued about is if the bread and wine convert to Christ's Precious Blood and Body, how come there could be some Alcohol? In my opinion, the Blood is 100% Blood and the Flesh is 100% Flesh.
The church fathers have afirmed that a transferance of attributes occurs during the liturgy so that the bread and wine become body and blood but its physical form is still clearly bread and wine, or it at least it was the last time I looked at it. ;)
[quote author=CopticSoldier link=board=1;threadid=298;start=60#msg3133 date=1086514354] Hi defender,
The church fathers have afirmed that a transferance of attributes occurs during the liturgy so that the bread and wine become body and blood but its physical form is still clearly bread and wine, or it at least it was the last time I looked at it. ;)
God bless you,
CS
I totally agree with CS
It is how you are brought up, it seems from the discussion that it is event devided over the issue. Your openions mainly come from how you are bprought up (me too). Now the obvious reason that alcohol is not EnCoUrAgEd in our church is because some people make a habit of it and drik heavely which can have bad long ter effects on the brain and the liver, BUT, there is nothing in church doctarine that states that drinking alcohol is [glow=red,2,300]NOT[/glow] allowed. It is up to the peson to choose, just like Celibacy (wrong spelling i think) some people choose not to drink, now this can be because they know they have wakness with alcohol, or just dont like it. The fact still remains that it is prohibited by the church.
And by the way alcohol in small amounts has medically proven to help the liver as it acts as a cycler for the liver by passing through it ( abit like fibers)
Every man/woman knows their weaknesses, if they know alcohol is one, then for spiritual benefit they should avoide it, on the other hand if it doesn't bother them in any way (honestly than I See nothing wrong with the moderate ocassional drink)
I believe a 10000000% that the bread and wine convert to Christ's Holy Body and Precious Blood, yet on this thread it seems like people are not really sure.
The reason that Holy Body and Precious Blood don't look diffrent after the convertion, is because if it looked like real Flesh would we eat it and if like real Blood would we drink it, so it's grace from our Lord that He allows us to eat His Holy Body and drink His Precious Blood and be seeing it with our physical eyes as Bread and as Wine.
At least that's what I think and plz correct me if I'm wrong.
I asked my Father of Confession and he gae me a straight correct answer:
He said that Christ unites with the elements and this is how the elements become Christ's Body and Blood, the Most Precious and Most Holy, Holy of Holies. As for alcohol, there is surprisingly no alcohol in the wine used for the Liturgy and that's why in the "Dawret el Hamal", Abouna takes the wine smells it and let the others smell it, so that they would make sure there are no alcohol.
One more thing he said was: "People in the forum might be trying to make you doubt the Mystery of the Eucharist"
Here's a quote from it on the Coptic, as well as Syrian and Latin Churches:
In the Roman Church the decision has been given ("De Defectibus," iv. 2, in the "Ritus Servandus" of the Tridentine Missal) that, while there is a valid sacrament when unfermented wine is consecrated, yet the celebrant of the Mass commits a grave violation of canonical law, unless there is extreme necessity for such consecration of fresh juice. St. Thomas was perhaps the first to condemn the use of freshlypressed juice, except in a case of necessity. A. Lehmkuhl in "Casus Conscientiae," 1907 (vol.ii, Case 34), holds that the use of unfermented wine in Mass is always valid, but never licit, except in extreme necessity.
In the Greek Church, as in the Roman, only in extreme necessity may the juice of grapes freshly pressed for the purpose be used in the Eucharist.
The Coptic, Abyssinian, Nestorian, and Armenian churches use only fermented wine, though there is evidence that in the Abyssinian Church the juice of raisins, washed Saturday night by monks and pressed Sunday morning, is sometimes given bv the priests to the communicants, before fermentation has begun or proceeded very far. Coptic sacramental wine has shown, under analysis, a considerable alcoholic content, in one instance as high, as 7 per cent. The following recipe for the making of Coptic sacramental wine has been received verbatim from the Coptic priest of Khartum (April 8, 1914) :
Gather dried grapes [raisins]. Put them in water (under water] for three days. Place the raisins, which have now become full grapes, under a native wine-press, and squeeze into a native bottle [and] any water left in the vessel in which the raisins were first placed. Seal the bottle, and place under the ground for forty days. Then use for Church purposes only.
Again, let me re-iterate that there cannot be sin in an inanimate object. Sin is in the person who intends to over-drink, not in the wine itself. If one drinks to get intoxicated, he or she is at fault.
About the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Qurbono, it is necessary to use Western Scholastic language to clear up confusion. Philosophically speaking, "Substance" is the nature of an object. "Accidents" are the remaining non-essentials. The "Substance" of bread and wine are no longer bread and wine after the Consecration/Invocation but become the Body and Blood of Jesus. The "Accidents," taste, smell, things we sense, color, etc. remain. This is because what is REAL is not the physical, but the meta-physical (spiritual). This changing of substance is the Mystery of Faith. We cannot explain how the Holy Spirit changes the "substance" thru the priest, that is the Mystery of Faith. We can only acknowledge that this change occurs. Even though the Orthodox Church does not define or term the Mystery, most scholars and bishops agree that the term Roman Catholic term "transubstantiation" best describes what is taking place. On indulgences, granting indulgence is a very pious custom and fitting; it is the SELLING of indulgences that is forbidden. On that note, selling of any blessing is forbidden. For example, I may sell an icon of Christ, but I may not add on to the price because it was blessed by Father.
Aslo St. Macarius drank wine because he lived in the destert and with every cup of wine, he drank 3 cups of water. Also, St. Paul advised St. Timothy to drink wine because St. Timothy had a digestion problem because of fasting for long hours.
Scientifically drinking wine agrivates digestive problems like hyper-acidity which can be caused by a lack of sleep so I'm not sure how your rationalising that, can you elaborate further?
I used to get that when I was fasting but I'd never drink alcohol to fix it. ???
However you point goes to show a legitimate use of alcohol. ;)
Defender, I agree with your assessment of St. Paul and Timothy, but what are you trying to say? Do you now believe alcohol in moderation is alright, or are you still against it? We cannot deny that the alcohol would have affected someone who was fasting even harder than someone who did not fast, since the faster's stomach would have been empty for days. Also the acidic property in alcohol would not necessarily help with stomach upset, it would probably make it worse. Then again, St. Paul wasn't a physician. I think that yor FoC knows you best and will give you the best advise, maybe he knows something about you (family history, age, personality, etc.) or is preparing you for some higher calling? This doesn't mean that the prohibition extends to everyone. Also, how old are you, this may play into why Father told you not to drink.
i mean no offense by any of my comments, i have been told that sometimes i come off as rude at other websites.
God Bless! Mart Mariam, pray for us! Mar Thoma Sleeha, pray for us! Mar Gregorios, pray for us!
[quote author=Defender! link=board=1;threadid=298;start=60#msg3112 date=1086475069] I disagree with drinking in the first place, no matter how much,
[glow=red,2,300]My FoC tells me, even little foxes can eat up the whole farm, so even little alcohol can ruin our Spiritual and Physical life...[/glow]
Defender
i still dont understand y anybody would want to drink? regardless of 'health' issues or whatever, what is the point of drinking? i can understand the scenario of being at a wedding were ie, champagne is being served, but y not stick to water or soda? sprite is always a good alternative... or how about those temples? :P
Drinking alcohol in moderation maybe good for health, also to raise ones spirits. You say to drink Sprite or soda, but those are also harmful, they erode calcium and are high in sugars. The food we digest in the United States is highly processed and usually high in fats and sugars; the cows, chickens and pork are injected with hormones, the fruits and veggies sprayed with all kinds of chemicals. If we only look at the negatives, everything has bad in it. But there is also good in everything. Everything in moderation, nothing to excess.
Ok, I am totally against alcohol for fun, God created alcohol but we abused it, just like God created iron yet we took the iron and made guns and knives to slaughter each other. If alcohol is used for medical purposes then it's Ok unless it gets you drunk. Because pain is better than everlasting pain!! Also the story of St. Paul and St. Timothy prooves my point that only used for medical purposes, and I don't think St. Timothy ever got drunk from it...
i'm sorry... this maybe to complete arrogance and ignorance.. but this thread stopped making sense at the point where we don't even know what we're trying to justify anymore... i'm just totally and utterly confused.
Okay what about a conclusion: Not drinking is not mentioned anywhere in a church offical statement BUT it really goes down to the person and his/her specific opionion on drinking. At least that is the conclusion i came up with from this thread if i am wrong let me know
Comments
The church doesn't work like that. You have a confession father, use him. :)
CS
what are our values and morals supposed to be?
why offer another point of view if we already know our own? i mean y take one saint and base ours upon his? the church always tells us to withstand temptations, even small ones and to say no to anything that goes against our own morals... so why bother?
i still dont understand what the point of drinking is...
Hi SMS,
Your missing the point. This is a spiritual rule that your talking about not a dogma, it can change, if it was a dogma then st. Macarius wouldn't be a saint nor the monks in his monastry who gave the wine to him. The story points out that there was a time that people drank wine, this is not an isolated incident there are other similar stories in the desert fathers. I'm just using it as one source to prove that pre-islam egyptians drank wine.
My Bishop has told us there is nothing wrong with having a glass wine of with a meal.
You have to accept the rule is not an article of faith. It is a culture based spiritual rule not a dogma, it can change depending on the circumstances.
God bless,
CS
CS
lol, good observation wfhanna1
The reality is as time goes on we will always be coptic but we will be more american, canadian or australian and part of that is that people will embrace those cultures and they will embrace us.
You have chosen not to drink and that is a good decision but drinking itself is not wrong and perhaps can be practiced in moderation in very limited circumstances?
CS
i mean i understand that we were forced to follow the whole islam thing wiht no drinking and keep the girls inside the houses, dont breath in ur cup, etc etc ETC lol
but this is who we are now... right?
CS
Defender
My FoC tells me, even little foxes can eat up the whole farm, so even little alcohol can ruin our Spiritual and Physical life...
Defender
Defender
The church fathers have afirmed that a transferance of attributes occurs during the liturgy so that the bread and wine become body and blood but its physical form is still clearly bread and wine, or it at least it was the last time I looked at it. ;)
God bless you,
CS
Hi defender,
The church fathers have afirmed that a transferance of attributes occurs during the liturgy so that the bread and wine become body and blood but its physical form is still clearly bread and wine, or it at least it was the last time I looked at it. ;)
God bless you,
CS
I totally agree with CS
It is how you are brought up, it seems from the discussion that it is event devided over the issue. Your openions mainly come from how you are bprought up (me too). Now the obvious reason that alcohol is not EnCoUrAgEd in our church is because some people make a habit of it and drik heavely which can have bad long ter effects on the brain and the liver, BUT, there is nothing in church doctarine that states that drinking alcohol is [glow=red,2,300]NOT[/glow] allowed. It is up to the peson to choose, just like Celibacy (wrong spelling i think) some people choose not to drink, now this can be because they know they have wakness with alcohol, or just dont like it. The fact still remains that it is prohibited by the church.
And by the way alcohol in small amounts has medically proven to help the liver as it acts as a cycler for the liver by passing through it ( abit like fibers)
Every man/woman knows their weaknesses, if they know alcohol is one, then for spiritual benefit they should avoide it, on the other hand if it doesn't bother them in any way (honestly than I See nothing wrong with the moderate ocassional drink)
I believe a 10000000% that the bread and wine convert to Christ's Holy Body and Precious Blood, yet on this thread it seems like people are not really sure.
The reason that Holy Body and Precious Blood don't look diffrent after the convertion, is because if it looked like real Flesh would we eat it and if like real Blood would we drink it, so it's grace from our Lord that He allows us to eat His Holy Body and drink His Precious Blood and be seeing it with our physical eyes as Bread and as Wine.
At least that's what I think and plz correct me if I'm wrong.
God Bless
Defender
I asked my Father of Confession and he gae me a straight correct answer:
He said that Christ unites with the elements and this is how the elements become Christ's Body and Blood, the Most Precious and Most Holy, Holy of Holies. As for alcohol, there is surprisingly no alcohol in the wine used for the Liturgy and that's why in the "Dawret el Hamal", Abouna takes the wine smells it and let the others smell it, so that they would make sure there are no alcohol.
One more thing he said was: "People in the forum might be trying to make you doubt the Mystery of the Eucharist"
You guys wouldn't be doing that would u??
I don't think so.
Defender
CS
http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html
Here's a quote from it on the Coptic, as well as Syrian and Latin Churches:
In the Roman Church the decision has been given ("De Defectibus," iv. 2, in the "Ritus Servandus" of the Tridentine Missal) that, while there is a valid sacrament when unfermented wine is consecrated, yet the celebrant of the Mass commits a grave violation of canonical law, unless there is extreme necessity for such consecration of fresh juice. St. Thomas was perhaps the first to condemn the use of freshlypressed juice, except in a case of necessity. A. Lehmkuhl in "Casus Conscientiae," 1907 (vol.ii, Case 34), holds that the use of unfermented wine in Mass is always valid, but never licit, except in extreme necessity.
In the Greek Church, as in the Roman, only in extreme necessity may the juice of grapes freshly pressed for the purpose be used in the Eucharist.
The Coptic, Abyssinian, Nestorian, and Armenian churches use only fermented wine, though there is evidence that in the Abyssinian Church the juice of raisins, washed Saturday night by monks and pressed Sunday morning, is sometimes given bv the priests to the communicants, before fermentation has begun or proceeded very far. Coptic sacramental wine has shown, under analysis, a considerable alcoholic content, in one instance as high, as 7 per cent. The following recipe for the making of Coptic sacramental wine has been received verbatim from the Coptic priest of Khartum (April 8, 1914) :
Gather dried grapes [raisins]. Put them in water (under water] for three days. Place the raisins, which have now become full grapes, under a native wine-press, and squeeze into a native bottle [and] any water left in the vessel in which the raisins were first placed. Seal the bottle, and place under the ground for forty days. Then use for Church purposes only.
Again, let me re-iterate that there cannot be sin in an inanimate object. Sin is in the person who intends to over-drink, not in the wine itself. If one drinks to get intoxicated, he or she is at fault.
About the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Qurbono, it is necessary to use Western Scholastic language to clear up confusion. Philosophically speaking, "Substance" is the nature of an object. "Accidents" are the remaining non-essentials. The "Substance" of bread and wine are no longer bread and wine after the Consecration/Invocation but become the Body and Blood of Jesus. The "Accidents," taste, smell, things we sense, color, etc. remain. This is because what is REAL is not the physical, but the meta-physical (spiritual). This changing of substance is the Mystery of Faith. We cannot explain how the Holy Spirit changes the "substance" thru the priest, that is the Mystery of Faith. We can only acknowledge that this change occurs.
Even though the Orthodox Church does not define or term the Mystery, most scholars and bishops agree that the term Roman Catholic term "transubstantiation" best describes what is taking place.
On indulgences, granting indulgence is a very pious custom and fitting; it is the SELLING of indulgences that is forbidden. On that note, selling of any blessing is forbidden. For example, I may sell an icon of Christ, but I may not add on to the price because it was blessed by Father.
Defender
Scientifically drinking wine agrivates digestive problems like hyper-acidity which can be caused by a lack of sleep so I'm not sure how your rationalising that, can you elaborate further?
I used to get that when I was fasting but I'd never drink alcohol to fix it. ???
However you point goes to show a legitimate use of alcohol. ;)
God bless,
CS
I think that yor FoC knows you best and will give you the best advise, maybe he knows something about you (family history, age, personality, etc.) or is preparing you for some higher calling? This doesn't mean that the prohibition extends to everyone. Also, how old are you, this may play into why Father told you not to drink.
i mean no offense by any of my comments, i have been told that sometimes i come off as rude at other websites.
God Bless!
Mart Mariam, pray for us!
Mar Thoma Sleeha, pray for us!
Mar Gregorios, pray for us!
I disagree with drinking in the first place, no matter how much,
[glow=red,2,300]My FoC tells me, even little foxes can eat up the whole farm, so even little alcohol can ruin our Spiritual and Physical life...[/glow]
Defender
i still dont understand y anybody would want to drink? regardless of 'health' issues or whatever, what is the point of drinking?
i can understand the scenario of being at a wedding were ie, champagne is being served, but y not stick to water or soda? sprite is always a good alternative... or how about those temples? :P
Ok, I am totally against alcohol for fun, God created alcohol but we abused it, just like God created iron yet we took the iron and made guns and knives to slaughter each other. If alcohol is used for medical purposes then it's Ok unless it gets you drunk. Because pain is better than everlasting pain!! Also the story of St. Paul and St. Timothy prooves my point that only used for medical purposes, and I don't think St. Timothy ever got drunk from it...
Defender
CS
Not drinking is not mentioned anywhere in a church offical statement BUT it really goes down to the person and his/her specific opionion on drinking.
At least that is the conclusion i came up with from this thread if i am wrong let me know
- Chris