Proverbs 7:10? I see a lot of women in church wearing not modest lately.

edited February 28 in Faith Issues
I am not here to judge or condemn, and I hope I am not coming off this way in any manner. 

However, I am confused and conflicted at why/how are parents permitting their young women and daughters to dress in such a promiscuous manner, especially in the Holy Church. 

It is very sad that I am seeing a lot of Coptic women in their 20's dressing in very high heels, tight clothing, short skirts, crop tops. :(

I could care less if this is a "trend." Yes, a trend for non-believers and atheists, but we're Christians, especially Orthodox. Our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit and this is disrespectful to the Holy Spirit and God. I find it hypocritical how others shun or condemn women who are unwed mothers or have fallen into sexual sin, yet they or their parents allow their children to dress in such a manner. 

Dressing in this way is no different.


  • Hello @MarinaM,
    I agree with you that nowadays this has been becoming a problem. It deeply saddens me that when we are comparing and contrasting our Church and how people dress, to other churches and how modest people dress for church and how early they come for church is really sad. Thank God, more Abounas, servants, and parents are increasingly speaking to this problem as it is worsening every day as one looks at another and follows the “trend.” It is something that we should pray about that God may open their eyes to really see what is behind coming to church and that we really meet with God inside His church, and protect the Holy Spirit within us so that it may protect us. Thank you for your post! May God bless our churches and teach us how to behave in His Holy House and partake of that amazing glory. God bless you.
  • How about, "mind your own business"? Both you and Proverbs.
  • You must live in New Jersey.
  • Dear @CopticApostate,
    Why the aggressive attitude, and especially towards the word of God? If you have your own beliefs and other ideas you should not come to a Christian website, unless you are craving a past relationship with God/church and want to learn more.. In this case, please be humble..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • @ophadece 

    This is me being neutral. Every Abrahamic religion has a list of rules and guidelines on what women should do, say and wear, as though they were either children or property. We currently live in the 21st century and every mature adult of sane mind should have agency for themselves, regardless of gender. The reason I'm here is because your admins haven't removed me yet, simple as that. Though I do appreciate a space where I can engage opposing views and actually be able to finish my sentence without getting interrupted - which is more than I can say about my ex-church.
  • Dear @CopticApostate,
    Thank you very much for replying to me, and yes I am so glad that you came here for opposing views and arguments.. That is a sign of maturity.. My original question was really driving at the potential of you not wanting to be here but I am glad you want to debate things. Now correct me if I am wrong but by saying things like ex-church as well as your name implies that you may not like what I am going to say so much..
    I take your point about religion/authority having a specific set of rules but that's exactly it.. There must be rules for any organisation, not excluding religion, for the members to belong, be distinguished, and avoid anarchy. Now you may not like it but these rules have been passed down by our forefathers who were close in time to Christ. Christ Himself said He didn't come to change but to fulfil. Why would He not change what's been there at least 5000 years before? And why would what He said be relevant more than 2000 years after? Because He doesn't change. From a philosophical point of view if ideologies continue to change with the passing of generations, then there is no such a thing as philosophy, or science, or art, or anything.. Life becomes meaningless and goalless.. I can assure you that this is not the Christian outlook..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • While what @CopticApostate is a bit aggressive of a response, i am sure the intention is not too far from the Christian view. Christianity is does NOT force it's believers to do anything...neither does it force them to be Christians at all. But, it's clear that in Christianity that we are to lead by almost all cases.

    There are enough monastic stories of fathers teaching their disciples what to do or how to correct themselves by example through incidents that were setup by those father to lead by example. This is the way it should be. For everyone to learn in Church. And when a person doesn't rebuke himself when he sees the example to be, then there is something wrong and larger problem to deal with it.

    @CopticApostate "mind your own business" is his way of saying "you be a Christian in Church, and I will maybe learn from you." The Bible and the entire book of Proverbs specifically is full of examples and role models for us to learn from and live by...but not be forced to do so. We must willingly want to do so. 
  • I have and want no authority to comment on what women should or shouldn't wear in Church, but there is an underlying topic here that I find interesting.

    With the exception of the Head of the Church being Christ Himself, the rest of the Church is entirely made up of sinners. We are all doing what we can to be Christ-like, but we all fall short. Often, one person's shortcoming can be a serious hindrance to another person's ability to pray and/or repent of their sins. I suggest that both the person with the shortcoming and the one with the hindrance are sinners, but I'm not sure of what can be done.

    I don't recall being all that distracted by someone else's clothing, but I have been significantly affected by someone's behavior. I've actually left a church over it. What I learned from the experience was that if I didn't carry some of the blame for the issue I was having I wouldn't have had the issue. I had issues on my side that made me overly sensitive to the other person's behavior.

    When I was in that situation, I used an odd metaphor to try to explain the issue I was having. I said that it was as though I had a sunburn and this guy in the church insisted on slapping my shoulder every time he saw me. He insisted that he did it to express friendship and should not have to change his behavior. I didn't blame him for my sunburn, but I needed him to understand that he was causing me pain and I needed him to stop.

    I never considered myself "better" than him, but the solution to my problem required action on his part. In my particular story, he was not inclined to adjust his behavior and I ended up looking for another church.

    I think the discussion here is similar. If everyone in the church had their focus fully on God it wouldn't matter what anyone was wearing. Unfortunately, many of us are too distractable for our own good. A distracted person is distracted because of his/her own sinful nature. At the same time though, I think it is very unkind of someone to completely disregard the fact that their choices affect others.
  • that is a great commentary that applies well to clothing.
    if we were all pure, we could all come to church naked and it would not be a problem (like adam and eve before they sinned).
    but as some of our brothers and sisters are easily distracted, lets check in the mirror before leaving the house (also try the view bending down as and if you are tall, save up / ask for a longer t shirt that covers the parts that become naked).
    if you look 'hot', alter your clothing before leaving the house!

    also may God heal all our 'sunburn' so we don't even notice each others' faults.
  • @minatasgeel 

    Thanks for the sentiment but I meant exactly what I said here. Mind your own business means, keep out of the affairs of others if they do not cause anyone physical, emotional or mental harm. Such an attitude is not displayed in most parts of the bible and definitely not in the Coptic church. I mean it, leave others be. 

    It does NOT mean, "hey, be a good Christian and I'll learn from you and 'repent'!" 

    Do not put words in my mouth.
  • edited March 16

    What if they cause certain young men spiritual harm by serving as a means of temptation, and for others in terms of being distracting in Church?

    I mean, again - would it be a problem if someone came into Church naked? What if they were protesting the Church and interrupted the Liturgy? Or should we mind our own problems?

    I regularly go to a Chalcedonian Church as of now, and when I first went there, I wore shorts. I was scolded by like three different people at in one day, and now I don’t wear shorts.

    You don’t know what people’s intentions are - maybe they don’t know better, or maybe they are there to draw attention to themselves - the latter which is antithetical to the purpose of the Liturgy, hence why the Priest faces the altar.

    And I don’t know what your beliefs are, but I don’t think an apostate should be entitled to tell the Church what to do, especially when it’s not even a part of their life and shouldn’t matter to them.

    But I’m just sharing my opinion.
  • edited March 16
    You obviously have lived and/or were born in the west for so long you completely misinterpret the lack of individuality in an Eastern cultures,such as Egypt. I am not ethically Egyptian and grew up in the U.S., but I have been married to a Copt from Cairo for 16 years. I know a fair amount about your culture and can look at things from an outside perspective and still understand the inside.
    A good portion of our planet doesn't have the benefit of, "minding their own business", especially women.
    As the person posting this is obviously a woman, she has a point.
    I agree to keep things to yourself, and I would probably agree with you in many things, but in regards to conducting yourself in a proper manner at church, it isn't about keeping it to yourself.
    That's like saying if you have anorexia, eat more. Life isn't that simple.
    You don't want or need me to lecture you, and I am trying my best not to sound like a douche. Your attitude is so westernized, the third generation American whose words you are reading is insulted by your ignorance.
    I have no issue with a woman wanting to wear what they want, but would you go to a job interview in a spaghetti strap top and jeans and say, "Mind your business, I wear what I want."?
  • edited March 17

    Saint Mary the Copt
    who fled to the desert and was found naked wandering around by a monk
    – she covered her body up with his cloak…I have enormous
    reservations about the story of her life – primarily due to it
    suited the misogynistic era to portray & have a formerly wanton
    woman self flagellating in the desert for her sins rather than being
    integrated into society as a valued person daughter of the Most High God who changed her
    lifestyle…. There are males who also abused their sexuality but
    none were found wandering in the desert self flagellating about it
    all What about Christs forgiveness & your sins being blotted out
    forever… I digress…

     If females rock up to church dressed
    seductively they are classified as whore like If a male rocks up to
    church looking rough unkempt – he is just one of the boys… Myself
    I think it is just commonsense to present with modest attire when it
    comes to things of God… How we present ourselves in physical realm
    is often a strong indicator of where we are at… It is important imo to
    recognise that many males and females in the sex work industry
    instinctively know to cover their bodies adequately when in a
    religious setting yet so called believers with non traumatic
    lifestyles or self declared adherents of Christian morality cannot wait
    to wear sexualized clothing… call it trendy. 

    NB The fashion
    industry took and takes a lot of inspiration from the sex
    work/pornography/bondage and sado masochism fetish industry … If
    sex workers know not to flaunt and give their bodies away for free
    (in visual & monetary facets) how hard it is for a Christian to
    honor God by covering their bodies adequately. Our bodies are the
    Ark. The double standard is present in churches – a riddle of

  • @ MarinaM RE 'I find it hypocritical how others shun or condemn women who are unwed mothers or have fallen into sexual sin, yet they or their parents allow their children to dress in such a manner. '  
    Yes so do I... It is best to attack the hypocrisy rather than externalisations of how a person dresses. Explore the whys... In my life experience some of the most modestly dressed individuals are the rotten ones... Nothing is what it seems...
  • edited March 19

    Then these young men need to assess their sexual needs and figure out a healthy way to deal with it instead of pinning it on other people. It's kind of like Muslims telling people not to eat bacon because it's haram when there's absolutely nothing wrong with bacon.

    I'm saying this because what you people do at church affects other people. I would be totally fine with you having a certain mindset I don't agree with, but when you tell people what to do and how to live their lives - as the church makes it its mission to, that's where I draw a line. 
  • @ItalianCoptic

    Are you an "unethical" Egyptian then? Lol (just kidding. I know what you mean but I used to be an English tutor and grammar mistakes just can't get past me).

    Jokes aside, ever wonder why people are fleeing from Egypt or wherever have you en masse? Everyone has their reasons but I'd wager my left arm and right leg that the culture that stifles individuality is among the list of reasons. You are not going for a job interview and I can guarantee you that in a civilised and non-theocratic society, whatever clothes that hypothetical woman wears would likely be acceptable in public and job interviews. It's the backwards middle-eastern thinking that focuses on moulding other people to their desires rather than fix their own shortcomings. 
  • @SaintJaneDoe 

    Jesus Christ, you make it sound like people are rocking church with fishnets, G-strings and ballgags. I don't remember things being that way when I was there.

  • Dear @CopticApostate
    As I said before you resent the authority of the church, so unfortunately you will never like her position. Christianity is life and she was given permission, as the bride of the Lord, to advise people in their every move, just like what Jesus did when He was on earth and what God did when He sent the commandments and chapters and chapters following on from them to lay down the law for each and every thing man would do to sustain a relationship with God. You may take it as a Middle Eastern backward thinking or avoidance of male lusting the female body, but would you believe me if I tell you that is not the case? Yes humans need to be controlled by an authority and laws and in the church that is no different. As much as ladies are being instructed by a set of rules, men are too, but the main issue is (that you either don't fully comprehend or didn't analyse enough to comment on) that the clergy are afraid to talk to young men and boys more are they of ladies and young girls. That is no excuse because they should act better, but as @LivenotoneviL mentioned, even boys and men should be decent in their attire going to church and not wear football T-shirts, shorts, tights, slippers, etc. But do they? Yes they do. Are they talked to? Rarely if ever, they even dress up as deacons and grow their hair long and curly and all kinds of stuff, you know what I mean. So what I am saying is that you don't agree with the Coptic mentality and that is fine, but probably for the wrong end of the stick - just analyse it better and you will still dislike it but for the right reason... I am sure you now know what I mean..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • Aside from the fact that society itself tells people how to conduct themselves, especially in regards to clothing (go to this business event wearing business casual, you aren’t allowed to wear spandex on this job, you have to wear professional clothes during a funeral / wedding, public nudity is illegal) and there’s no problem there, why are you trying to reform an institution when

    1. You have no interest in actually supporting or joining this instution.
    2. You believe the institution is irreformable
  • It is a interesting reading the comments but also makes me despair a bit at how there is no love or insights as to the realities of life and those who need to decrease their antics if they want to exhibit authentic Christian love to those hopelessly enmeshed in the ways of the world. The church is looked to as a beacon yet its light is so dimmed with inner conflicts it can barely register at times to those seeking answers. Worse it barely glimmers for those drowning in satanic bondages

    "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you” Jesus Christ (Matthew 21:31)
    "Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone! " Jesus Christ (Matthew 21:31)  
    I like sharing through art & writing on stuff like this & sharing in secular places. I don't have all the answers for all the answers are found in Christ Jesus. But i can be a voice too just as valid as all the saintly types preaching ones who make me at times feel invalid small & trash..
  • edited March 20
    I just caught that. I hate making grammatical mistakes, but I've learned to let some things go. I am definitely unethically Egyptian. I'll wear shoes in your house, I won't eat bread with my dinner and I won't drink tea after our meal. :))
  • @ CopticApostate I bet if I had used the name of 'Jesus Christ' how u did in a sentence I would be banned because I am not Egyptian and not brought up as a copt... see the double standard even in this forum... But what I wanna tell u is that u can run on for a long time playing the game of atheist but truth is you are hedging your bets... U have tasted truth of who God is which many many do not know and for that what u r doing imo is despicable... U will & do have blood on your hands for every person who does not know the truth of Christ because u r aiding and abetting satan in the game of destruction... Hope u don't sleep well at night. It is one thing to loathe a church construct it is quite another thing to knowingly lead more people into the abyss because of your grudges... And it is apparent u come from privilege & r educated.. but that means zero in the spiritual realm Think it over. 
  • edited March 21

    I would think that you are getting a cold shoulder of no acceptance from your words and actions, not your ethnicity. Egyptians do a lot of unusual stuff, but a lack of hospitality is not part of that unusual stuff. You're quick to come to predetermined notions about a group of people whom you have been trashing the entire time you've been on here, yet you complain when someone left the church, or Christianity as a whole for that matter? How have your actions done anything to bring a person back to Christ?
  • edited April 9
    I know it's been a while but there are some things I just have to respond to.

    1. The church can mandate any set of "rules" they want, that doesn't mean they can't get scrutinised because of these rules. If a local country club or pub started mandating that their patrons come in with tuxedos and suits, those establishments would go out of business very quickly. The church can do and say what it wants, but, a) it has to be prepared for the consequences. b) I'm more about talking to the actual people than changing the church as a whole.

    2. St.JaneDoe, I used "jesus christ" as a cultural expression of bewilderment. This has nothing to do with being Egyptian at all, I can promise you that. On the contrary, the old school Copts in my family still tell me to "not use the Lord's name in vein" when I utter the magic words. To their credit, I doubt the people in this forum are very particular about something like that and I doubt even more that there will be a certain set of rules that apply only based on someone's ethnicity.

    3. Again, St.JaneDoe, you have to think about things from other people's perspectives. Telling me that I'm Satan's spawn or whatever is laughable to me, just as much as my atheism is laughable to many. To me that's on the same level as "you're gonna be in Santa's naughty list". I'm not hedging any bets on anything, I'm just saying that anyone who claims a religion they can't prove is not credible. Oh, and I sleep very well at night, mind you.

    4. @ItalianCoptic, High five mate.
  • Dear @CopticApostate,
    So you say your "atheism may be laughable to many", yet like @ItalianCoptic said before you keep coming onto this forum predominantly visited by Coptic Orthodox people. I suggest that you really look deep down; I do believe your atheism is very superficial, and not genuine; only serving as a mask for a defence mechanism called "reaction formation" whereby one tries to form the opposite position of what they really desire for more than one purpose. You probably are still as much Coptic Orthodox as any one on this forum if not more, but you just don't want to admit it to yourself, and come here to convince yourself by the opposite. Well well well, why do I have to say that really? What business do I have? Nothing, except I love you as a brother/sister (sorry I don't know and don't care if you are a man or a woman). God bless you (the same God who you despise because of mere Coptic congregation's actions that you have no real problem with, but with your own authority figures, projecting them on the church). May God also help you and bring the best out of you soon, and that best is not what you declare.. 
    Oujai qen P[c
  • edited April 10
    While your heart is in the right place, saying such things to a person like @CopticApostate is not going to make her beliefs any different. She is more than likely from a very strict family who forced her to go to church and not ask questions, which usually has the opposite effect, drawing a person further away from the church.
    I would hedge bets that she was forced to go the church, and has done everything to put herself as far away from Coptic Orthodoxy as she can. Her background and knowledge of our church does make her what we should call a, "Lapsed-Copt" who is merely Coptic Orthodox in name, but does not participate or support a church in any manner.
    When you are raised in a different society, you see there are different opinions. Based on her vernacular, she's probably from Australia. There are a lot of freedoms there, you hear and see different ideologies and learn of different histories separate from what one would learn in Egypt.
    Telling her she is Coptic Orthodox is actually derogatory to her. She has experienced more than I ever have as a convert, and she can help us with the negative sides of what comes with any organized ethnocentric religion. I say she's an open-minded and educated young woman and if she is meant to come back it won't be by us trying to tell her she should.
    My wife has a cousin who married in a secular ceremony and it was beautiful. She married a good person, they are both successful and happy. I feel that @CopticApostle may not need the church at this point in her life.
    If God's will is for them to come back, let us show it through our patience and understanding rather than saying, "You are Coptic Orthodox because you are."
    I left Catholicism at age 14 and never went back because my mother kept on saying, "You're Catholic and you'll always be Catholic."
  • Thanks @ItalianCoptic and sorry for sounding rather negative and sorry too to @CopticApostate - I didn't mean to offend
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • First off, I'm a male, in case anyone's confused. Secondly, you can all think whatever you want about me, just know that I've heard all these armchair deductions a million times. I even made a very long thread (now closed) detailing exactly why I don't believe in your deity, or any for that matter. The way the Coptic Orthodox church functions is pretty much universal; people have reported similar experiences in every part of the world from Australia to Europe to America and, believe it or not, even Egypt (although I think Australian churches tends to be every much as backwards as Egyptian ones). The church certainly didn't help at all with the way it operates but "you left because of the people" is a very fallacious claim. It simply shows the "accuser", if you may, has a mind that can't comprehend doubt and scepticism, especially when it's aimed at their deity.

    I'll tell you something, even if the Coptic congregation somehow removed every ounce of hypocrisy from themselves I still would have left on the grounds of there being no empirical evidence for their claims. After my first few posts I promised to never post again because apparently, my words cause doubt to some and instead of adding anything meaningful to the thread based on my input, somehow the thread tends to shift gears and try to find out who/where/when/what I am. There are some topics that I just cannot let pass by me though and you will see me there even if I had to get banned for it, it doesn't matter much to me anyway. My advice? Instead of trying to find out why I'm an atheist and/or why I'm here, challenge my points, not my mindset. No this isn't me being closed-minded, there's a time and place for that if that's your thing. 
  • Dear @CopticApostate,
    Thank you very much for your reply, it shows that after all you do have patience and genuine interest in dialogue, which is great. Please remember that part of my questioning about your motives and upbringing is indeed challenging your way of thought. I repeat the question hoping not to offend you again "why come here in the first place?", why is there need to debate your position? I am not looking for any answer but please think about it..
    Another few points then that I would hope would stir up some constructive conversation. Firstly, there is a very simple saying that goes "don't leave the church because of the people, no one runs away from their mother because of the silliness of their brothers". Although too simplistic but it does hold true to some extent. However, don't think that you are the only person having issues with the Coptic people, have you read my posts? At this moment in time I have grave issues with the congregation but I am not leaving the church where I found that indescribable treasure after the second decade of my life. Do you know that elmokattam mountain moved? Do you know that when the qorban touched the Nile, the overflow subsided? Do you know that the Coptic Church's calculation determines the feast of Resurrection and consequently the appearance of the Holy Fire? I know you would think to yourself that some people are deluded to have faith in such fickle things that are not scientific and mean nothing to me. They really have to be fickle, otherwise the whole world would be Coptic Orthodox and the devil would never have existed but it does. Trust me if I tell you that even the scientific evidence is warped for the atheist population and if one tries to refute it, they will not be trusted. Have you considered that science changes every day? Have you seen that after Darwin introduced his ideology, he changed his mind at least six times (or let's say modified). Do you know that the orbits of the stars change shape all the time, and indeed the velocities of their travel do too? The only constant for me on this earth is God as you may have already figured out. I would like to hear your ideas..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • edited April 11

    Thanks for the response. Understand that I take emotions completely out of the picture when I respond, I am neither offended nor angry. Think of me a robot (I'm often compared to one irl). Unfortunately, text does not convey that.

    > "why come here in the first place?"

    I'm here only because certain topics warrant my intervention. I want to lessen the harm this church does to people in any way possible, and that includes interacting with you on your platform. Any woman with any shred of dignity would understand that bible and church are not her friends, the [edited by admin] they deal with at church is enough to make anyone furious.

    "don't leave the church because of the people, no one runs away from their mother because of the silliness of their brothers". Although too simplistic but it does hold true to some extent. 

    I've clearly stated in my post that that statement is a standard accusation I'm met with daily. I was willing to stand "the people" for the >2 decades I've walked this planet, it's the intellectual dishonesty and the exaggerated claims of a deity that I disagree with. I'm simply stating that "the people" do not help in persuading anyone. Honestly though, you and I both know that "the people" are... less than savoury, before you go try to espouse the virtues of a church and toss this major issue aside, you lot should try to fix the backwards thinking of many in your church. Don't take this the wrong way but those who left on educated grounds won't come back if people turned to angels but at least you would be honest with yourself. And I understand that there's good and bad in everyone but if the bad is so far spread out you can't chalk this to a few bad apples. Again, and I reiterate in case anyone gets the wrong idea; I didn't leave for the people, this is hardly ever a reason and to date I've never actually met any atheist of any ex-religion claim they'll go back if people fixed their attitudes.

    However, don't think that you are the only person having issues with the Coptic people, have you read my posts?

    Never mind your posts. Have you ever actually heard what happened during the popes visit here 2 years ago? Your very congregation has a problem with itself to the point that they would risk jail and lawsuits to address their issues. My plan is simple, simply walk away. Sooner or later, your churches will be empty - not from a lack of faith like myself but from believers with unwavering faith not going physically. There's already a worldwide decline in church goers among younger populations. The Coptic church even made a survey asking how many and why people "left" (they never made the distinction between those who discarded faith, those excommunicated by the holy synod and who are still religious but choose not to go) and they never released their results. I've seen some mission churches pop up in attempt to captivate the youth but many old school Egyptians consider these churches heretical. *none of my business though* *sips tea*.

    > "Do you know that elmokattam mountain moved?"

    [Citation needed]

    > "Do you know that when the qorban touched the Nile, the overflow subsided?"

    [Citation needed] and just to test out that theory, would someone in Egypt, Sudan, South Sudan or Ethiopia be willing to throw a Orbana in the Nile and document their results?

    > "Do you know that the Coptic Church's calculation determines the feast of Resurrection and consequently the appearance of the Holy Fire?"

    So they've done their maths homework, god exists? And about the holy fire, how good is your Arabic?

    > "They really have to be fickle, otherwise the whole world would be Coptic Orthodox and the devil would never have existed but it does."

    Well then, its claims shouldn't be so extraordinary, otherwise they would require similar extraordinary evidence. According to Orthodox beliefs, the devil existed long before humanity and we were created to replace him and his army after the war in heaven and the fall. Again [Citation needed]

    > "Trust me if I tell you that even the scientific evidence is warped for the atheist population and if one tries to refute it, they will not be trusted."

    I reckon that's a case of the chicken and the egg. Is atheism the cause of the scientific method or is the scientific method the cause of atheism? I will not go into the history and specifics of that but the scientific method is a tried and true method of ascertaining truth. It's because of it that you now have that device you're talking to me through, it's because of it that planes can fly and it's because of it that medicine and surgeries can cure you. It does not favour religion for obvious reasons and if you discard it solely on that front then you may as well never go to a hospital, fly around or use any technical device. No one is saying you can't refute it, science works by challenging dogma, finding faults, researching and fixing up to the best of our current ability. But in your endeavour in refuting, you have to be credible in doing so. "Faith" is never a measure of credibility. You wouldn't let a devout Orthodox Christian with no background in medicine operate on your brain tumour through "faith", would you?

This discussion has been closed.