How has the Coptic Church kept itself pure from child abuse by clergy?

edited January 2019 in Faith Issues
How has the Coptic Church kept itself pure from child abuse by its clergy? I have searched extensively for evidence of clergy abuse within the Coptic church and come up with nought. It gives me hope there is some purity that is real with priests bishops etc. I did however find plenty of infighting, egos  & a ghastly event of a copt monk killing another monk. Overall the Coptic church is very clean imo. in that respect. Other Christian religions should take note of that... I will be gutted if find out I am mistaken... It will be the end of ever going near a church again. You read me...  What is it that has retained and maintained purity in this area? I put it down to great oppression/suffering but there must be other answers. Ok nuff said.


  • Well this is the case for a couple of reasons:

    - Priests in the church are married

    - Bishops long ago used to be married, but are now from among the monks that have been in the monastery as monks for a very long time, in which case they can withstand the temptation if it comes. Also, they don't deal with people as much as priests do.

    - Child sexual abuse is a very weird concept to Egyptian...that goes for homosexuality too. 
  • Saint Jane doe ,

    When you said , “ it will be the end of ever going near a church again”, were you being serious ? Do u base your commitment to your faith solely on human deeds? You should spiritually mature and base your faith in the teaching of Christ and the fathers of the church rather than seeing which Church has more scandals .... search for truth , not tabloid news and gossip and scandal
  • Atadros yes I am serious re my statement. I expect a standard & demand a standard otherwise all churches should be dismantled. All believers have a right to demand this and should. 
  • @ minatasgeel thx for input... 
  • @SaintJaneDoe

    I urge you to reconsider your position on this matter.

    One apt description of the Church is a "hospital for the soul". You wouldn't shut down a hospital because it's full of sick people would you. I think you also wouldn't refuse to go to a hospital if you were seriously injured because it's full of sick people. Every single person in every single church on Earth has some degree of spiritual illness; that's why we're there. 

    I very much appreciate where you are coming from. When someone in the church in a position of influence messes up they can cause a great deal of suffering for another person. This is why it is so important that we treat each other with the kind of compassion Christ treats us with.

    Please though, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 
  • Dear user,

    In response to your initial question, it is sufficient to say that the Coptic church has kept its purity through God's grace.
    More Importantly, why would you ever oppose the will of God and attack the church which He gave us for our salvation?!
    God bless
  • edited January 2019
    When you look for what fits for you, you're looking at it in the wrong way. Eastern Christianity -- Christianity is a religion, you should say other denominations not other Christian religions -- is far more communal than what we see in the West.

    Looking for perfection from any organization or institution is a futile effort. I converted because of the basic decensey, love, patience and compassion of the man who married me and my wife.

    I disagree with some of the church's ideals, ethnic differences and the thin line between culture and Orthodoxy that can be blurred. For the most part, the Coptic church is not that big into scandals. There are some; more recently with Monks being taken out of the social media world that you referenced, but nothing compared to the issues in the Roman Catholic church.

    If you're looking to leave the Catholic church because of that you're looking in spite. Come to our church because of what is best about the people, where you feel you can grow spiritually, and finally, where you can build a foundation for a Christ-centered life. It's difficult to be Orthodox because it isn't sunshine and unicorns. Priests, Monks, Nuns, Bishops and even our Pope are human beings. With that comes some form of shortcomings, mistakes, sins and all that comes with the human experience.

    Orthodoxy reveals the deep, dark side of humanity. It deals with anger, sadness, joy, pain, forgiveness and thankfulness in the most troubling of times. If you were to read and listen to the history of early Christianity, men and women who we venerate as Saints in the 21st century were by no means perfect.

    To answer your question, having married Priests is a huge part of it. Cultural norms in Egyptian culture tend to not have men and women work closely together unless they're married, family or there is a big difference in age.

    I am 36, and I would never pick up my Priest's daughter from the airport by myself because she's 35 and single. We are extremely close, too. I talk to her more than my own sister and it still would be inappropriate.

    A Priest wouldn't be alone with a single woman unless it's someone helping him out when his wife is away, -- my wife cooks food for him, as do some other ladys in the church -- or is his family. My wife wouldn't stay at our Priest's home if his wife or kids aren't there. It's basic common sense and trust that has lead to less issues like in the Catholic church.

    Finally, there is some sense of Priests being holy people, but there is also an understanding they are humans, men and are not perfect. That core belief is the major difference.

    When I was young and in the Catholic church Priests were held to such a high standard no one would doubt them. They don't do that in the Coptic church.
  • Thx to all for responses... ItalianCoptic Christianity is a belief not a religion Religion is manmade concepts about the belief = that's how I see it...  Rastafarian movement had Jesus Dread Vivian Jackson who bowed to none but Christ & refused to worship Haile Selassie as God. Vivian had a hell of a life but soared above it. He is a Saint... God came to him in a vision and gave him a new name - Yabby You. I listen to his music a lot - it is so deep as holy deep as Coptic music I listen to as well.  Just felt to tell ya that miscellaneous info. God is everywhere in the world doing His thing in ppls lives.

  • edited January 2019
    Christianity is a belief, but it also a religion. When you referred to other, "Christian Religions" you wrote a misnomer.

    Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. If you believe that religion is merely a, "Man-made concept" then why would you want to join any kind of organized church?

    The clock you follow is man-made, the car you drive, the road you use, the language you speak, and the money you use only means something to us. Religion is a man-made concept because we're the only species on Earth who has the intelligence and self-awareness to feel complex emotions that led to the emergence of such beliefs. We didn't know how to understand and explain something, so we looked for answers.

    I am glad you know so much information, and can go on and on with folks on here with tons of knowledge. But you're already looking at something with preconceived notions and a closed mind.

    The world doesn't cater to you. Life, even in a general secular sense doesn't do what you what, when you want, and how you want. Get that through your head first, expand your knowledge a little more and look past yourself and your own issues.

    You are complaining that there should be some clean slate of perfection from demanding it, but you aren't setting your own standards to such a level. You can't bash Christianity and talk so lightly about it while you are obviously trying to find some form of spirituality. Then you say how, "God is everywhere..."

    The Coptic church isn't one hour of singing from Pastor Ron, and some donuts and coffee before each service. It's an organized and structured branch of Eastern Christianity, with a ton of obstaining from foods, prayer, long Liturgical rituals and most importantly it's not meant to be your take out snack when you want to eat it later. It's always a part of you.

    The way you are already conceptualizing organized religion is not going to help you. If you don't like it, go join a leanient non-denominational church and be one of those, "Independent" Christians who believes a church is nothing but a building.

    I am definitely going to listen to that though. I have an Ethiopian friend who is from Jamaica and she makes amazing ox tail and goat. She has pictures of Selassie in her restaurant.
  • :) Thank you for the share the album is great.

    Is it just me or is it hard not to hear "Brown Eyed Girl" when listening to Yabby You's "Antichrist"?
  • edited February 2019
    @ George27 ur welcome - one of my fav songs Anti Christ  Btw  - a macca tree is a thorn tree Glad u love it I do too Blessings all up on it Holy Spirit saturated. 

    @ItalianCoptic u r pretty verbose urself! I don't know everything far from it. No crime in reasoning... as for mocking people... that statement re join a lenient church is unnecessary & slightly vitriolic Indicative of back off and join our way or be mocked. I am in the process of being excommunicated from the RC church I found out from an atheist site how to navigate the papal system so they cut me out.  The Vatican changed their laws as so many Catholics were becoming ex Catholic so they rigged a more difficult way to stop the exodus. As for joining Coptic church it is not a huge priority at the moment as I am trying to learn. The Coptic church is the lst church I didn't feel like vomiting up in What u gonna do in heaven when there's no church iding huh!? Will ye miss it? I wont... Church is merely a tool to get through - it is not God. I am deeply worried about the next life tho as cannot fathom it all. Navigating through threats of hellfire, saints, fear, hope despair & tentative faith & all that makes sense to me is Iosa who died for mankind.I believe & God knows that. I don't need anymore put down than the next enquirer. Everyone struggles No one is cutting edge with God stuff. [ edited by admin ] ... I think about sinead o connor converting to islam & when I read some of the nasty religious superiority numbers pulled on ppl here I almost u/stand why she wigged out and did it...  Fleeing the self righteous makes ppl do desperate things. You are correct however that I demand some standard unrealistically Bye I've shared all I want to for a long long time. From now on just gonna read & not interact.
  • edited February 2019
    Jane Doe, it seems to me that you are holding a serious grudge against Rome for what a priest did to you - and what he did was horrible and disgusting, and if he is unrepentant, he will not be saved. 

    However, with that being said, it is detrimental for your spiritual well being to make this a focal point of your existence, and to not forgive that man for what he did to you.

    It's not quite the same, but I'm an ex Roman Catholic who grew up in a pretty liturgical Novus Ordo environment, whose witnessed as the years go on the Roman Church in my areas become less and less liturgical and more cheesy, poppy, emotionalistic, artificial, and even pharisaical (like, "don't question our authority in making such changes, you aren't the Vicar of Christ!"), 

    I mean, this video is biased, but it kind of shows off what I'm talking about.

    When I eventually visited a Tridentine Mass, I had so much bitter hatred and anger towards the Roman Catholic Church as a whole from the 60s onwards, in that they would destroy something so beautiful and authentic just to be "hip" and "cool", such that I had bitter hatred towards my Catholic schools that I grew up in, bitter hatred towards the Liberals, bitter hatred towards Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, and especially Pope Francis for canonizing these people.

    It was only recently I realized that this undue hatred was really creating problems in my relationship with God and my relationship with others, and I had to "let go" and "forgive" those who may have intentionally or unintentionally harmed me. I realized I was living in sin.

    When Christ was being crucified, He said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He loved even those who were torturing Him and killing Him - and you should do the same.

    I know that I'm just talking about aesthetics and you are talking about someone seriously harming you, but you have to seriously pray constantly - for yourself and the Catholic Priests who are living lives of blasphemy and wickedness - and talk to your Priest about this. I know you probably aren't a member, but I'm sure that you can talk to your Priest under the seal without being absolved. 
  • @Livenotonevil I just wt 2 say thx 4 ur share. Re video both types of worshiping turn me off but it s the intent/purity of heart/spirit God will judge. Yes re forgiveness for what the roman catholic church has done/does... The Copts are welcome in Ireland There r two churches one in Dublin one in the south. It is easy for Irish to relate see the parallels re the copts.The big dif is the Coptic church didn't collude with state forces, betray their people, rape kill plunder the souls of indigenous ppl … Our language stayed alive because of good priests & our ppl were slaughtered like cattle for their faith right up into the 1980s and it the catholic church that destroyed our ppl spiritually not the brits.. We should praise God in our native tongue and ways... This should be the Irish national anthem because our ppl r broken so broken spiritually & so am I. Song The 3 Marys grieving the killing of God. Bye

    Caoineadh To Weep/Grieve/Lament Sung in sean nos (traditional Irish
    style) Irish language/as Gaeilge. Bearla/English
    Translation Verse 1 Is that the son nourished at Mary's breast "Alas
    and woe to me" Or is that the son I carried three terms "Alas
    and woe to me" Verse 2 Or is that the son born in the stable
    "Alas and woe to me" My son my darling your nose and mouth
    are cut "Alas and woe to me" Verse 3 Blunt nails were
    driven through his feet and hands "Alas and woe to me" The
    pear was put through his beautiful chest "Alas and woe to me”

  • @ItalianCoptic & whilst I am at - when u mock the Christian brethren aka other believers outside of Coptic church who attend various types of church - you just shame urself… think about it. satans lst sin was pride... take it on board
  • edited February 2019
    @SaintJaneDoe If my words came off that way it was more a response to your perception of how to go about joining a church.

    Making fun of a Protestant Megachurch isn't exactly mocking other Christians. It's picking on the American consumer ideology of that particular brand of worship and the, "Prosperity Gospel" many of those churches teach.

    But, now seeing that you are Irish and my oldest brother married an Irish woman, I can fully understand your vigor and temperament.
  • @ ItalianCoptic no-one ever fully innerstands a person - only God does... also cultural stereotyping is abit cringey.. sometimes the hat fits but overall we are individuals not defined solely by skin/culture mores. The masonic type prods are the deadly ones & as for the prosperity doctrine it is obvious it is devilish & a mockery of God. NB diversity  in  worship is real... Why limit the Holy Spirit work/worship to one church. Carrie Robinson singing dancing in the Holy Spirit in a time of great of oppression (1960s) on her ppl One of the most beautiful videos on the internet imo. This is authentic dignified worship crying out to God with no shame & it is utterly humbling &  beautiful... 
  • edited February 2019

    It's meant to be humor. It is not cultural stereotyping. Saying I am making sweeping statements by about skin color and race is absolutely ridiculous. You go on about the English and this and that, inferring your dislike for the actions of the past, yet I can't take a humble knock at you?
    I have tried my best to give you basic advice, but as Pope Shenounda once said it's pointless to talk to people who can hear you but aren't listening.

  • @ItalianCoptic I am reading Shenouda's book at present = don't smear his name with your antics... There are plenty of other people here for you to expound with on your great depth of knowledge. Ciao Mussolini 
  • Allow me to give an objective response far away from the others who would outrage at the very thought of someone accusing a priest of anything and far away from the people who only took from this thread the thoughts of you leaving the church. The Coptic church is better than its Catholic equivalent on that front, I will say this much. I'm not particularly looking but as of yet I haven't heard of a Coptic priest molesting children. Some of them are dodgy and some of them do piss me off at times, but I still won't call them pedophiles.

    So, why do Orthodox, especially Coptic priests (hopefully) not molest children? I have a number of hypotheses in mind.

    1. Sexual repression doesn't make a grown man attracted to little boys all of a sudden. I could get into the gruesome details of what sexual repression does to the human male but I feel that this is too prudish to post something like that The priests who were convicted (and the others who may even be getting away with it) probably took the position for the authority and power that comes with it. NO other line of work allows any adult without a background check unsupervised access to children than clergy. So it's not priesthood celibacy that turns a man into a pedophile, it's the pedophile who chooses to be a priest to further his ambition.

    2. It's a matter of numbers, if there's bound to be at least one predator per 20-40 million priests (don't quote on those figures, hard to say how many priests there are in the world) of any given denomination then you're obviously going to find more of that behaviour there considering the worldwide Coptic population (including priests) is estimated to be at 20 million.

    3. Perhaps it did happen. How would you know? Arab culture as a whole, Egypt included, doesn't support rape victims but shuns them some and even go so far as to stone the victim for adultery. And that's for females, imagine a male victim spoke up about such a trauma. He would likely be honour-killed by his family. Besides, suppose a victim did speak up; have you seen the support priests get? Cardinal Pell in Australia was unanimously convicted by an impartial jury after damning evidence was presented to court yet he had 2 of our ex-Prime Ministers (total monsters) have his back, churches pay all his legal fees and thousands supporting him despite his sentencing. A Coptic priest would probably have every Coptic congregation from his diocese all the way to Egypt fully backing him. The victims are repressed and shamed, even here in Australia, I'd assume that would apply ten folds for Egypt.
  • Thx some good points in there... btw I read your reddit stuff & so forth... My gut feel at you is that deep down somewhere in the recesses of your spirit u retain a spark of belief... methinks it must be a suffocating feel of culture and spiritual belief hoisted on you from birth and one needs to flee to re-evaluate what is what To find ones own authentic stance/person It is a journey in itself so always leave the door open because you can walk away from being an atheist too. My own culture/religion RC am ex RC were so hopelessly intertwined disastrous outcomes occurred. Re victims and control  = The repression & shame yes... it is trying to wake the people up but one wonders do they want to be woken?  For survivors of RC it is our millstone from the church ppl - rejection/shame. We don't wear it tho. Me see the Coptic church stumbling block is (or rather me perceive it as ) overt pride in culture tangled with a strong faith in God that is construed as superior to others. It serves to leave all non Egyptians as outsiders. I don't think any Christian religion is devoid of the stain of some twist in it... Am a believer in Christ albeit wrestling with the church constructs all round haha I wrote something tonite that matches some of what u were saying re it all here.  slan & thx for input In hurry so hope what wrote made sense See Cillini read wot I wrote to catholics  (cillini is irish word for babes & children buried in unconsecrated ground Ireland)
  • @SaintJaneDoe 

    Re me having faith: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You may call me St. Xavios The Apostate - Patron Saint of Critical Thinking. I shall intercede for you before the first atom. I've had that thrown at me more times than you can count and my mother likened me to St. Moses The Black (I think that's a bit racist). Apparently, if you're a Christian you can tell the inner working of someone's head and determine exactly what they think. How on Earth did I miss out on that lesson in Sunday school!?

    Sorry, but a sarcastic response is all you're going to get from me in that matter. Experience tells me that's the only way to respond to such ignorance 

    Re the rest: please find the time to rearrange your points in a neat manner. I don't mean to be rude but I honestly can't make sense of anything beyond RC (I may be wrong but is that short for Roman Catholic?)
  • @CopticApostate It is easy to spot a non authentic to the core atheist... doesn't take a high degree of insight in natural or spiritual realm. Authentic atheists some I have as friends have been very active in exposing crimes of religions... I always hope for their salvation as many are ethical individuals. The mere fact you hang out here shows me you are not the real deal I mean being here tis your prerogative  but really you are talking to the hand because if there was no God why even bother dialoguing with your people/tribe of believers. Surely that would be a waste of your cerebral matter. As for rearranging what I wrote in neat pointer form for your consumption and clarity need - thanks for the morning larf. RC is recognised universally as Romanised Catholicism just as Coptic is an Egyptian Christian/s
  • Hi Jane,

    This was posted online by the Royal Commision into child sexual abuse by the Australian Government:

    I couldn’t bring myself to read past the first few paragraphs.

    One important thing I beg you please, please, please to remember is that the Word of God Himself tells us that He is our one and only true Father, not any priest, who we should not be calling Father in rebellion against what our Father has said.

    Our Lord Jesus Christ said this:
    Matthew 7:21
    “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    And this:
    Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a). This is God's description of love, and because God is love (1 John 4:8).

    The wickedness of men, especially those in the clergy, will be punished in a way beyond our comprehension.

    The Coptic Church has countless church laws that are not Biblical, which causes people to sin.

    Just because it is not as bad as the Catholic Church, the heresy and complete defiance and addition to the Word of God, which the Lord has warned us against, will be punished.
    And just because it is not sexual, other abuse, such as physical and psychological or emotional will no doubt be found in both the clergy and the family of the victims.

    Matthew 18:6
    “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

    And to all those who have suffered and been abused, God is near to the broken hearted, and saves the crushed in spirit.

    May God our Father bless you and protect you and guide you in every step that you take.

    With much love from a sister in Christ,

  • I should specify, in case you can’t access the website, that this Royal Commission report was in regard to a young Coptic girl who was sexually abused by a priest at her church. The Coptic Church in Egypt might be able to cover up these appalling atrocities but the Australian Government is based on Christian values and fears God more.
  • edited September 2019
    Hello @Mary78,

    First, welcome to the forum since you just became a member in the last couple of hours. It's like you made an account just so you can post this specific story.

    Second, I have read the story. No where in the story, the following is mentioned:
    - Where did this take place
    - Any real names that can affiliate this story to the coptic church--Aisha is not a christian name at all, but the commission does disclaim that names were changed
    - What "orthodox Christian church" was the girl part of
    - The Commission did not verify any of this information and that is also disclaimed

    So, you are presenting this story to prove something that you have any mind, but the article brings you no foundation of whatsoever. 

  • @Mary78

    With all due respect to you and to the victims, where is the evidence? At the bottom of the article it says “did not take oath but was expected to tell the truth”. You see the issue? I’m not pushing “Aisha” out but at the same time that sentence is a bit unsettling.

    By the way, the Church made the Bible. The Bible did not make the Church. Christ established his Church. The church gathered some Jewish Books to show the origins/prophecies, valid accounts of the gospel, and some letters and made the Bible.
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