Baptism Mandatory?

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
I was approached by some members of the Minonite Denomination of Protestantism and I was asked whether I believed that Baptism was a necessity to get to Heaven. This confrontation wasn't a debate or anything it was just a simple conversation because they seemed a little confused and they wanted to know what i think.

I told them that in the Coptic Orthodox Church we believe that it is necessary to be baptized because this is how we receive the Holy Spirit. They then asked me for a reference and I didn't really know exactly, but i did refer them to the Last Chapter of Matthew which is the Great Commission and it contains Jesus' command to the apostles to go and baptize in the name of the: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This wasn't enough for them because it never said that we receive the Holy Spirit.

I really like this question because i realized that i didn't really know much about it, but i just learned to accept it since i was born into the faith, so I would really appreciate your responses.

To sum up the questions of this post:

Is Baptism necessary for salvation?
If so, what are some references to back it up?

Comments

  • 1. Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

    Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:4-5

    They will tell you that water represents the amniotic fluid which breaks at birth and the Spirit is simply faith, so they can avoid this argument (this is an example of Protestants always interpreting what is literal unliterally and vice versa. They do this for all the sacraments. To them eat my body and drink my blood = have faith)

    2. In fact, baptism does not give the Holy Spirit, but chrismation (Myroon) (of course, they don't acccept either). I believe this is one of the strongest passages I've ever seen: Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.  18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given Acts 8:14-18
  • [quote author=qawe link=topic=13276.msg155286#msg155286 date=1336284126]
    1. Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

    Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:4-5

    They will tell you that water represents the amniotic fluid which breaks at birth and the Spirit is simply faith, so they can avoid this argument (this is an example of Protestants always interpreting what is literal unliterally and vice versa. They do this for all the sacraments. To them eat my body and drink my blood = have faith)

    2. In fact, baptism does not give the Holy Spirit, but chrismation (Myroon) (of course, they don't acccept either). I believe this is one of the strongest passages I've ever seen: Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.  18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given Acts 8:14-18


    Thanks qawe, very helpful indeed. I totally forgot about Nicodemus. Great example. This is definitely very straight forward and not much interpretation is needed.

    So if the Holy Spirit is given through the Holy Myroon, and the Protestants don't do the Myroon, do they receive the Holy Spirit? Because they also say in Acts as you have stated that the Apostles also gave the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands.
  • Im guessing the answer is the same as much else concerning Protestants: no guarantees! But no judgments either.
  • Before start quoting the Bible, we need to understand why baptism is essential for salvation.

    Through the Fall of Adam and Eve, corruption entered into the world and the human nature fell under the curse of death because of that corruption. There was no way for humanity to inherit the Kingdom of God as it is written: ".... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." 1 Cor 15:50.

    As you know, God used water as the source for creation and its sustenance. Thus, water became a symbol for life and consequently the Holy Spirit the "life-giving Spirit" as the Church calls Him.

    Humanity had be renewed and restored to gain salvation from the corruption of sin and the death that overruled it. So, our Lord descended into the water to give it again the power to recreate as it was before the Fall. He was baptized to renew and restore humanity again.

    So baptism became an essential for rebirth as the discussion with Nicodemus shows.

    There are numerous verses that explains and proves baptism as a must for the restoration. However, since man has freewill to sin and live in corruption, he also has freewill to accept restoration and recreation through baptism.

    Hope this helps.




  • [quote author=qawe link=topic=13276.msg155289#msg155289 date=1336286909]
    Im guessing the answer is the same as much else concerning Protestants: no guarantees! But no judgments either.


    How true lol.


    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13276.msg155294#msg155294 date=1336313088]
    Before start quoting the Bible, we need to understand why baptism is essential for salvation.

    Through the Fall of Adam and Eve, corruption entered into the world and the human nature fell under the curse of death because of that corruption. There was no way for humanity to inherit the Kingdom of God as it is written: ".... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." 1 Cor 15:50.

    As you know, God used water as the source for creation and its sustenance. Thus, water became a symbol for life and consequently the Holy Spirit the "life-giving Spirit" as the Church calls Him.

    Humanity had be renewed and restored to gain salvation from the corruption of sin and the death that overruled it. So, our Lord descended into the water to give it again the power to recreate as it was before the Fall. He was baptized to renew and restore humanity again.

    So baptism became an essential for rebirth as the discussion with Nicodemus shows.

    There are numerous verses that explains and proves baptism as a must for the restoration. However, since man has freewill to sin and live in corruption, he also has freewill to accept restoration and recreation through baptism.

    Hope this helps.







    Thank you very much imikhail! That makes so much more sense. Even though i thought this question was one that was of no importance, I learned a lot from this question and now I realize the importance of Jesus' baptism.

    Thank you guys a lot, life is a little clearer now.
  • I think St Paul answered this in Romans 8.

    Let me preface the argument by giving a simile. Can a foreign slave inherit a kingdom without doing anything? Even if a foreign slave conquered armies for his new king, does that give him the right to inherit the king's throne and kingdom? No. Royal lineage is subject to familial relationship. Only the king's son can inherit a kingdom. Period. No one else can win ownership of the kingdom.

    St Paul says, "Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" Rom 8:17. Only children can become heirs of God the Father and co-heirs with Christ. Christ is heir by natural birth and Christians are heirs by adoption. No one else can become heirs of God's kingdom.

    What is the sign of adoption? This is the second half of the verse: "if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." The sign of adoption is sharing in his sufferings and glory. (Suffering first, then glory). The only way one can share in the suffering of Christ is to die with Christ. The only way once can share in the glory of Christ is to rise with Christ. This is the definition of baptism. The only way to get to heaven and inherit the kingdom is to become children of God through baptism.

    Simply arguing that by faith and grace - and not baptism - one becomes a child of God and has a right to go to heaven is inadequate. It is akin to the foreign slave who claims that he is a king simply by living in that city. Even if that foreign slave was naturalized and became a native of the city, he can never be entitled to the throne. He will never own or enter the palace as king and heir. Baptism is the only way to become children of God and enter heaven.

    If this was not the case, why would St Peter have baptized Cornelius? Cornelius had already believed. He was given more grace than most people when he saw the angel of God. St Peter concludes, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Acts 10:47, 48. The same is true for the Ethiopian eunuch. "As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” And he gave orders to stop the chariot." Acts 8:36, 37, 38.  Notice a pattern here? If baptism is not a requirement, why did two different apostles on two different occasions with two different catechumens bother to baptize?

    Returning to Romans 8, St Paul explicitly tells us there is a requirement if we want to become children of God. He writes, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it....but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God....the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship." Romans 8:12-15. How do we receive the Spirit, if it is not specifically through Baptism and charismation/unction? How are we led by the Spirit, who puts to death the misdeeds of the body, if it is not baptism? Living according to the Spirit cannot be done by faith alone. Living according to the Spirit, which is an obligation, automatically leads to baptism. Therefore, baptism is a requirement. This is just simple logic.

    The Scriptures acknowledges that baptism is a requirement for heaven. There are many more references. I hope this helped.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13276.msg155321#msg155321 date=1336424780]
    I think St Paul answered this in Romans 8.

    Let me preface the argument by giving a simile. Can a foreign slave inherit a kingdom without doing anything? Even if a foreign slave conquered armies for his new king, does that give him the right to inherit the king's throne and kingdom? No. Royal lineage is subject to familial relationship. Only the king's son can inherit a kingdom. Period. No one else can win ownership of the kingdom.

    St Paul says, "Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" Rom 8:17. Only children can become heirs of God the Father and co-heirs with Christ. Christ is heir by natural birth and Christians are heirs by adoption. No one else can become heirs of God's kingdom.

    What is the sign of adoption? This is the second half of the verse: "if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." The sign of adoption is sharing in his sufferings and glory. (Suffering first, then glory). The only way one can share in the suffering of Christ is to die with Christ. The only way once can share in the glory of Christ is to rise with Christ. This is the definition of baptism. The only way to get to heaven and inherit the kingdom is to become children of God through baptism.

    Simply arguing that by faith and grace - and not baptism - one becomes a child of God and has a right to go to heaven is inadequate. It is akin to the foreign slave who claims that he is a king simply by living in that city. Even if that foreign slave was naturalized and became a native of the city, he can never be entitled to the throne. He will never own or enter the palace as king and heir. Baptism is the only way to become children of God and enter heaven.

    If this was not the case, why would St Peter have baptized Cornelius? Cornelius had already believed. He was given more grace than most people when he saw the angel of God. St Peter concludes, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Acts 10:47, 48. The same is true for the Ethiopian eunuch. "As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” And he gave orders to stop the chariot." Acts 8:36, 37, 38.  Notice a pattern here? If baptism is not a requirement, why did two different apostles on two different occasions with two different catechumens bother to baptize?

    Returning to Romans 8, St Paul explicitly tells us there is a requirement if we want to become children of God. He writes, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it....but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God....the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship." Romans 8:12-15. How do we receive the Spirit, if it is not specifically through Baptism and charismation/unction? How are we led by the Spirit, who puts to death the misdeeds of the body, if it is not baptism? Living according to the Spirit cannot be done by faith alone. Living according to the Spirit, which is an obligation, automatically leads to baptism. Therefore, baptism is a requirement. This is just simple logic.

    The Scriptures acknowledges that baptism is a requirement for heaven. There are many more references. I hope this helped.


    Thanks Remnkemi, that's a new perspective i haven't seen before.
  • There are many passages both in the Old and New Testament that point to the fact that Baptism is mandatory and salvific, Baptism or "βαπτισμός" in Greek means to submerge or dip in water, From Baptism We will be saved(Mark 16:16),we get a second birth which is a spiritual birth(John 3:3-5,Titus 3:5), get the remission of sins(Acts 2:38), die and get resurrected with Jesus Christ(Romans 6:3-4),become children of Holy Trinity(Gal 3:26-7) and last but not least We will be one with Christ(Gal 3:27).
    Both imikhail and Remnkemi explained the concept of Baptism beautifully, but for further addition let me start from mysteries of the Old Testament about Baptism.

    1.Exodus 13, 14 crossing of the Red Sea is a salvific symbolism of Baptism. Moses and the Israelites were saved by God from Pharaoh and His army by the crossing of the Red Sea. God guided them by the pillar of cloud in daytime and pillar of fire at night. God parted the sea for them to cross the dry land and once they crossed the Red sea, Pharaoh and his army followed them, but God allowed the water back to its present place and destroyed the Egyptians. The Pillar of Cloud and fire symbolizes the Holy Spirit, Pharaoh and His army typifies Satan and His angels, The destruction symbolizes the burial of our sinful nature through water Baptism, Moses represents the Priesthood, The promised land represents paradise, crossing the red sea one time represents One Baptism and the Red sea represents Baptismal water, which St. Paul also explained this in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2, "Moreover brethern, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud. all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

    2.4 Kingdoms 6:4-7,The Floating Ax head
    In this passage a man from Elisha's group was cutting trees and his iron ax head fall into the waters of the Jordan river and this same water has major symbolism of Baptism as Our Lord was baptized in the same river,The person took a stick of wood and threw it on the water to show where it sank in which the stick of wood represents the Cross of Christ and as soon as the stick was thrown the Ax head floated,The sinking and floating  of the ax head represents the person's death and resurrection in Baptism as Baptism signifies the death and resurrection in the likeness of  Christ(Romans 6:3-8).The crucial mystery here is,How could iron which is heavier than water floated in water? and this mystery illustrates the concept of the illumination of the sacramental mystery of Baptism in being resurrected and being spiritual born again.

    3.The three major sacraments that are administered simultaneously, but which are rejected by protestantism are also prophesized by the Psalmist in Psalms 22(23) in which Baptism being the first which leads to the path of righteousness,The Psalmist said,"He leads me beside the still waters..He leads me to the path of righteousness"(v 2-3)and the next sacrament being Holy Chrismation,He said,'' You Anoint my head with oil"(v 5) and regarding the Eucharist He said, "You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies...My cup runs over.''(v 5)see also Luke 22:17-21.

    The main point here is Orthodoxy sees the Old testament in a deeper concept and meaning than other religions, it is like a mirror image of the New Testament, but the verses that point to the fact about Baptism being salvific are lucid and explicit in the New Testament, for example
    Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"

    Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    Titus 3:5, "He saved us,through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."
    The washing of regeneration is referring to Baptism

    Acts 22:16, " Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins,calling on the name of the Lord."
    Ananias told Saul explicitly to be baptized for cleansing his sins and this verse is very crucial for the importance of Baptism.




  • Just a clarification:

    Through Baptism, we receive the newness of life and we are restored to incorruptibly which would be completely achieved in heaven.

    Through Chrismation, we receive the Holy Spirit and are able to preserve the new man.

    Two  sacraments but each has a definite role
  • Where in the Bible preferably in the new Testament, do we find Chrismation? My priest told me in 1 John, but i can't really find it. I know that at first the apostles did it by laying of hands and then they switched over to anointing with the oil.
  • [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155350#msg155350 date=1336479257]
    Where in the Bible preferably in the new Testament, do we find Chrismation? My priest told me in 1 John, but i can't really find it. I know that at first the apostles did it by laying of hands and then they switched over to anointing with the oil.


    1 John 2:20,27
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13276.msg155351#msg155351 date=1336479684]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155350#msg155350 date=1336479257]
    Where in the Bible preferably in the new Testament, do we find Chrismation? My priest told me in 1 John, but i can't really find it. I know that at first the apostles did it by laying of hands and then they switched over to anointing with the oil.


    1 John 2:20,27


    thx imikhail, i found them in the morning when skimming through it, but why doesn't it ever explicitly command chrismation?
  • [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155385#msg155385 date=1336521220]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13276.msg155351#msg155351 date=1336479684]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155350#msg155350 date=1336479257]
    Where in the Bible preferably in the new Testament, do we find Chrismation? My priest told me in 1 John, but i can't really find it. I know that at first the apostles did it by laying of hands and then they switched over to anointing with the oil.


    1 John 2:20,27


    thx imikhail, i found them in the morning when skimming through it, but why doesn't it ever explicitly command chrismation?


    Chrismation was done only by the apostles and the clergy. Jesus gave the commandment to the apostles to preach and baptize. It is not a general command for anyone to carry on.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13276.msg155388#msg155388 date=1336523239]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155385#msg155385 date=1336521220]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13276.msg155351#msg155351 date=1336479684]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155350#msg155350 date=1336479257]
    Where in the Bible preferably in the new Testament, do we find Chrismation? My priest told me in 1 John, but i can't really find it. I know that at first the apostles did it by laying of hands and then they switched over to anointing with the oil.


    1 John 2:20,27


    thx imikhail, i found them in the morning when skimming through it, but why doesn't it ever explicitly command chrismation?


    Chrismation was done only by the apostles and the clergy. Jesus gave the commandment to the apostles to preach and baptize. It is not a general command for anyone to carry on.


    I understand that only people dedicated to God's work such as priests and above have this duty, but what i am trying to say is: Where does it say that our Lord Jesus Christ told the apostles to do this. I believe that this is what happened, I just don't know how to explain it if somebody asks me.
  • [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155389#msg155389 date=1336523346]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13276.msg155388#msg155388 date=1336523239]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155385#msg155385 date=1336521220]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13276.msg155351#msg155351 date=1336479684]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=13276.msg155350#msg155350 date=1336479257]
    Where in the Bible preferably in the new Testament, do we find Chrismation? My priest told me in 1 John, but i can't really find it. I know that at first the apostles did it by laying of hands and then they switched over to anointing with the oil.


    1 John 2:20,27


    thx imikhail, i found them in the morning when skimming through it, but why doesn't it ever explicitly command chrismation?


    Chrismation was done only by the apostles and the clergy. Jesus gave the commandment to the apostles to preach and baptize. It is not a general command for anyone to carry on.


    I understand that only people dedicated to God's work such as priests and above have this duty, but what i am trying to say is: Where does it say that our Lord Jesus Christ told the apostles to do this. I believe that this is what happened, I just don't know how to explain it if somebody asks me.


    There are so many things that were not mentioned explicitly by our Lord, yet the Church has received it through the Holy  Tradition. The Lord on numerous occasions would take His disciples alone and talk with the, especially after His resurrection. We were not told about these things but have received them through tradition.
  • Quoting the bible to any person in protestantism is pointless. If they say "show me where it says baptism is necessary." well, they will have an answer for whatever you say, even if it were to say "you need baptism." You have to remember, their whole religion, each sect, is founded on the scripture as sole authority. They all view it differently from us, and from one another. So discussing scripture with them is absolutely pointless. What you first must establish is who has the correct interpretation by establishing who is the correct church.
  • [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13276.msg155407#msg155407 date=1336625640]
    Quoting the bible to any person in protestantism is pointless. If they say "show me where it says baptism is necessary." well, they will have an answer for whatever you say, even if it were to say "you need baptism." You have to remember, their whole religion, each sect, is founded on the scripture as sole authority. They all view it differently from us, and from one another. So discussing scripture with them is absolutely pointless. What you first must establish is who has the correct interpretation by establishing who is the correct church.


    How do u do this?
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