Spiritual Fathers and Discipleship

Hi guys,

I hope that this does not turn into a debate, and I hope that I personally don't make into such (I am a very argumentative person... Forgive me)

I feel (not know but feel) that within the Coptic Church in the land of immigration (as i personally have experienced it0 has lost a great sense of discipleship with the youth. I have begun to feel that the relationship between the fathers of confession and their children is becoming more of a work based relationship. Not much follow up exists on the problems. As Orthodox Christians, discipleship is important, as not only do we learn by seeing, but we often need someone to take a genuine interest in our deep spiritual life. I have begun to feel that priests are treateting every youth on the basis that all they want is to live a fun filled life, away from the church, and that confession is just another thing that must be done, but that there is little accommodation for those who want deep spirituality, and learning. I personally want a Spiritual father who is mainly full of the following:

1) Deep personal and Orthodox Spirituality. By this I mean that they understand the faith as revealed by the apostles and the gospels. Also, a deep prayer life, where they are so full of God's spirit that they can guide by his power. While i understand that their spiritualtiy does not concern me, it would be a plus to almost "feed" off their spirituality.

2) Someone who cares and understands me. I dont want to go list my sins, and then walk away with nothing more than an absolution. I want deep guidance that is so special. Not just the practical things, but the deep ideas of the orthdoox church.

Basically, I want to grow. If i cannot find this with my father now, should i ask them to change their method for me, should i switch to a different father, and if i switch, how do i know how they are.

I lack spirituality, and i want a SPIRITUAL FATHER. ie. someone who is spiritual and someone who is a father.

Looking to hear your thoughts on all of this.

-ReturnOrthodoxy

Comments

  • You sound frustrated.

    Having a great father helps but what is better is having a humble and gentle heart, the bible seems to describes 2 types of people who were faithful servants of God.  The first is children and the second is older people who are worn out from their failures and terrified at the presence of God.  Of the former there are examples in David, Samuel, Mary who called in their young age obeyed God naturally an latter has examples in Peter, Moses and Abraham who God slowly worked and struggled with to form them into faithful servants.

    We spend so much of our lives easing our consciences and turning the fire of God into coldness, slowness and stiffness.

    The lesson from the above is that we must start out as faithful servants of God while we are young or else we will need to pray and ask God hard to ease the hardness, blindness and sleepiness which is building inside of us.  We sadly don't make enough use of the baptismal graces which God gives us and are entirely sufficient for us to be a fire of flame.

    There were 2 types of people who struggled to know who Christ was during his ministry; the first was the people of His city that grew up with Him and the second was the educated teachers who studied the scriptures looking for signs of His coming.  There are the two groups that logically should see Christ first but their study and experience rather than being easily observed by their hearts was a source of gradual stiffening, blindness and then the most shameful thing - rejection of the One they should have been most grateful for being in close proximity to.

    I think we all fail to see just how often we shun God's voice in our lives; we resist the Holy Spirit so much - especially in lands of immigration where we can be so self sufficient and we can have success, money with very little care or worry.

    A startling opposite to us is St Mary who used to keep all the events God did for as being significant and meditated on the in her heart, she wanted to draw the power out of Gods works which were happing around her so that her love and works were a living flame and so it was.

    We need to be this vigilant, the Church praises St Mary and calls here the second Eve because of one primary thing - her obedience - this fruitful thing made her the real Eve.  To do this she was vigilant and possessed a heart that with ease meditates, recognised and cherished the experiences which God had granted her as being something of a very treasured and special importance.  The fathers teach us that the problem of disobedience is that it has become something so deeply rooted in our wills that we're completely subject to the law and sin of death.

    Conversely with regards to us and our plight I think the biggest example of the source of our destruction will be that 75% of Christ's parables was about a very unexpected thing, not heaven, spiritual gifts, fasting or prayer, no the majority of His parables were about money - think about that.  The one thing we're awash with in our society is the thing Christ also spent 75% of his time dedicating parables to - my guess is that this emphasis means we're in big trouble.

    Its not hard to see why our hearts are so cold, empty and loveless we're like the rich man who didn't even notice the poor blessed Lazarus at the gate. His sin was not that his was rich, his sin was that he lived in such self indulgence that he had the most numb conscience imaginable, once which had no time of observe the misery of a poor man like Lazarus who was at his gates and could have been noticed at any time and on any day.  The sad thing was that it was totally within the rich man's power to ease the suffering of Lazarus, to cloth and feed him and provide care to him.  The rich man was so drunk on his passions that he would have rather dropped deeper into his own passionate infirmities than notice this poor suffering man at the gate.

    He spent all his time feasting surrounded by phonies and all kinds of entertainment until he appeared before the Lord and this was the first time that he could see his drunkenness for what it really was and his wickedness for what it really was.

    Its hard to think of an example so opposed to St Mary than the rich man.

    There is the parable of the man with the barns which people seldom comment on is the parable of the man with the barns and the unexpected great harvest.  St Basil says that this parable it so show how everyday we lead ourselves into greater indulgence, it demonstrates how the man could have noticed that this great harvest was really beyond his needs and there was no space in his barn to accomodate for these additional goods so he ought to have realised this blessing for what it was and given it to someone who needed it more.  Instead he changed his perception of what he needed and built a bigger barn for no other reason than to keep the goods for himself and so everyday our expectations of what we need go from survival to greater and greater levels of luxury and we don't make time or opportunity to share with people who suffer.

    I've recently been considering my own bondage and how these things have effected me; I hope that it give you some perspective.  I'm not entirely sure I have answers but what I do know is that the monastic life is like a continual cycle of the parable of the sower where each time the monk does what he can to clear the ground so the next time the seed lands a greater and longer last crop is produced.  There will be times when the seed lands and sprouts then dies, the lesson is we need to clear the weeds, break up and irrigate the ground and then wait until the Lord sends the second then third seed and so on.

    Please pray for me,

    LiD
  • [quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12392.msg145193#msg145193 date=1316995306]
    Hi guys,

    I hope that this does not turn into a debate, and I hope that I personally don't make into such (I am a very argumentative person... Forgive me)

    I feel (not know but feel) that within the Coptic Church in the land of immigration (as i personally have experienced it0 has lost a great sense of discipleship with the youth. I have begun to feel that the relationship between the fathers of confession and their children is becoming more of a work based relationship. Not much follow up exists on the problems. As Orthodox Christians, discipleship is important, as not only do we learn by seeing, but we often need someone to take a genuine interest in our deep spiritual life. I have begun to feel that priests are treateting every youth on the basis that all they want is to live a fun filled life, away from the church, and that confession is just another thing that must be done, but that there is little accommodation for those who want deep spirituality, and learning. I personally want a Spiritual father who is mainly full of the following:

    1) Deep personal and Orthodox Spirituality. By this I mean that they understand the faith as revealed by the apostles and the gospels. Also, a deep prayer life, where they are so full of God's spirit that they can guide by his power. While i understand that their spiritualtiy does not concern me, it would be a plus to almost "feed" off their spirituality.

    2) Someone who cares and understands me. I dont want to go list my sins, and then walk away with nothing more than an absolution. I want deep guidance that is so special. Not just the practical things, but the deep ideas of the orthdoox church.

    Basically, I want to grow. If i cannot find this with my father now, should i ask them to change their method for me, should i switch to a different father, and if i switch, how do i know how they are.

    I lack spirituality, and i want a SPIRITUAL FATHER. ie. someone who is spiritual and someone who is a father.

    Looking to hear your thoughts on all of this.

    -ReturnOrthodoxy


    Greetings,

    We have been very blessed here in Bermuda with fr. Isaac El Antony! I think he is just whom you are looking for! He is a very spiritual caring father. When I took my family to Church my little nieces thought he was Jesus! 
    His email is: [email protected]

    Our Almighty God richly bless u!!!
  • I know him from Melbourne, he is a very good man.  How is his misson in Bermuda going?
  • hi, returnorthodoxy.
    may God answer your prayers.
    remember God knows what we need more than we do.
    you think you need a spiritual father, but if you look for God with all your heart and decide so serve Him no matter what the price, then He will give you all you need. just don't think you know better than Him what you need.
    i'll give u an example.
    i thought i needed to stay in my old church, where (after many years of searching), i finally found a close church family and spiritual roots. i thought that as i had a few hard years that it must be God's will to give me a job near my church because it was good for me and also good for my church friends and the visitors to the church, who i hoped to get to know better. also i was sure i was in the best church in the world and i just didn't want to leave.

    so when i got a job far away and had to change churches, i was deeply sad. my church friends were sad, and it was so hard to leave them. i couldn't imagine how God could use me somewhere else.
    so today, with a bit of anxiety and worry i visited my new church for the first time and arrived late as they had changed the times of mass! i knew no-one.
    i sat down next to a young lady who smiled at me, and from then on it just got better and better.
    i went for Holy Communion and explained to abouna i had been late. he allowed me to commune, as they had only changed the times recently. then, after church everyone greeted me really warmly, and by the end of a few hours in church, i had 5 really close friends with whom i have loads of things in common. 2 families from church live really close (a few minutes' drive) from my new house and one of the ladies works in the same place where i work! another lady is close friends with a close friend of mine from my old church. there was a Bible study group after church and the people there are already serving God in the ways i hoped to in my old church. i was overwhelmed as i saw God give me everything i really needed just in one day even though i hadn't trusted Him enough about this.
    but God, in His mercy forgives my sin and, like a good Father, disciplines us as we need as gives us all we really need.
    may He also fill u with all His goodness.
    :)
  • [quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12392.msg145425#msg145425 date=1317426521]
    I know him from Melbourne, he is a very good man.  How is his misson in Bermuda going?


    Oh, he is really doing wonders here in Bermuda! He has many converts and much respect from all the church leaders. It is said that the future for the COC is "very bright indeed". May God continue to bless!!!
  • + [quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12392.msg145193#msg145193 date=1316995306]Basically, I want to grow. If i cannot find this with my father now, should i ask them to change their method for me, should i switch to a different father, and if i switch, how do i know how they are.

    "11. The spiritual progress war:
    The devil may make you over-anxious about your spiritual progress. “You are not making any progress, change your Father in confession,” he whispers in your mind. What we don’t know is that God hides from us the fruits of our strife, even unto the last day of our life. He does this out of love for us , for if we see results, we will immediately attribute the results to our own piety and not to Grace, and thus lose all what we gained from our strife to pride and self-righteousness. When the Lord brought Israel into the promised land, He told them “The LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee.” (Deut 7:22) The Fathers explain this to us by saying that these “nations” symbolize our sins. The Lord does not want to destroy our sins quickly, lest the beasts of the field, pride and selfrighteousness, increase in us and devour us.
    The Lord also gave us a parable that we should not expect to see results for our strife, “And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.” (Mark 4:27) If you have a house plant it will grow every day, but if you try watching it to see if it grows, can you see it? So it is with your spiritual life, do not expect to see results because God hides the results from us for our own good."
    (Practical Spirituality according to the Desert Fathers by Father Athanasius Iskander, pages 45-46)
    http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/spirituality.pdf

    [quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12392.msg145193#msg145193 date=1316995306]
    I feel (not know but feel) that within the Coptic Church in the land of immigration (as i personally have experienced it0 has lost a great sense of discipleship with the youth. I have begun to feel that the relationship between the fathers of confession and their children is becoming more of a work based relationship. Not much follow up exists on the problems. As Orthodox Christians, discipleship is important, as not only do we learn by seeing, but we often need someone to take a genuine interest in our deep spiritual life. I have begun to feel that priests are treateting every youth on the basis that all they want is to live a fun filled life, away from the church, and that confession is just another thing that must be done, but that there is little accommodation for those who want deep spirituality, and learning.

    Our blessed Confession Fathers have been chosen to Priesthood, directly by God's permission. Who are we, to say that they are not suitable..

    [quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12392.msg145193#msg145193 date=1316995306]
    1) Deep personal and Orthodox Spirituality. By this I mean that they understand the faith as revealed by the apostles and the gospels. Also, a deep prayer life, where they are so full of God's spirit that they can guide by his power. While i understand that their spiritualtiy does not concern me, it would be a plus to almost "feed" off their spirituality.

    Abouna is a human being too. His power is not his. It is soley God's. The one whom we should be feeding off is God - He is the Bread of life, and we should live on every word that proceeds from His very mouth. The one whom we should aspire to be like is God, "Be holy for I am Holy" - 1 Pet. 1:16 . Why? because we, being of a fallen nature, can sometimes fall as a result of weakness or even willingly. We can learn from God's people but to a limit. This limit is discussed in Pope Shenouda's book, The Release of the Spirit pages 44-47 i.e He was fast asleep when the angel whispered in his ears, 'Till when will you live thus, a mere shadow of another person who dominates own you as he wills?' The voice was lenient and sincere, so the sleeping person was not disturbed by it but replied calmly, 'What do you mean, my master the angel?' The angel replied, 'I mean that you have lost your personality with regard to your thoughts and your spiritual life.. and now you have the personality of another person. That person exalted himself and became exalted in your eyes to the extent that you took him for an example. You began to follow his steps in everything; if he is elevated, you are elevated also and if he falls, you fall with him. You adopt his views and follow his deviations. Moreover, you defend his views more than he himself . You take his principles as incontestable; suffice you that the person whom you worship has uttered them once... http://www.copticpope.org/books/relspirt.pdf

    A deep prayer life can be attained by praying... prayer teaches us to pray. Our Fathers can guide us in the way and tell us about God, but nothing is like our personal relationship with the Lord. There is a difference between knowing of Jesus and knowing Jesus.

    [quote author=returnorthodoxy link=topic=12392.msg145193#msg145193 date=1316995306]
    2) Someone who cares and understands me. I dont want to go list my sins, and then walk away with nothing more than an absolution. I want deep guidance that is so special. Not just the practical things, but the deep ideas of the orthdox church.

    God already cares and understands you. Before each confession, simply ask God to speak on the tongue of your Confession Father. This way, whether your confession Father gives you advice or not, it's from God. A Priest once said that he didn't know what advice he was saying in confession but he knew it was God's personal message to the confessor. That's an example of one of the many differences prayer makes before confession.

    Reveal these thoughts to your Confession Father to expose the deceit of the devil.
    Verbalise the concerns you have to your Father with all respect.
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