[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11998.msg142737#msg142737 date=1312759144] What you are saying makes sense if we are talking about mere poems. Here we are talking about hymns which their purpose is delivering faith in a musical mold, praying to and praising God.
The other point I like to make is that there is a structure of how Coptic verses are structured regardless of the language used and keeping the meaning intact.
you know....you puzzle me sometimes. it looks like your view are just too broad that sometimes they contradict each other.
i can get the part about praying and praising God.....but you also have favored rhymed coptic psalies and hymns and said that it was a crucial part in them being authentic and purely coptic in nature.
in the beginning of this post you said that o kerios was not suitable to be said in the Church for the reason of it's age yet you accept and "newer" version of it (as weak as that sounds)......
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11998.msg142739#msg142739 date=1312763545] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11998.msg142737#msg142737 date=1312759144] What you are saying makes sense if we are talking about mere poems. Here we are talking about hymns which their purpose is delivering faith in a musical mold, praying to and praising God.
The other point I like to make is that there is a structure of how Coptic verses are structured regardless of the language used and keeping the meaning intact.
you know....you puzzle me sometimes. it looks like your view are just too broad that sometimes they contradict each other.
i can get the part about praying and praising God.....but you also have favored rhymed coptic psalies and hymns and said that it was a crucial part in them being authentic and purely coptic in nature.
in the beginning of this post you said that o kerios was not suitable to be said in the Church for the reason of it's age yet you accept and "newer" version of it (as weak as that sounds)......
Be specific in pointing where you think I contradict myself, so may be I can explain myself better.
O kirios as it stands with its rhyming pattern does not make sense. What does that have to do with authenticity, favoring newer versions, ...
Are you suggesting that newer hymns are not rhyming?
I am sorry. I have to say I am confused by your post.
The original text is in Greek, my understanding is that it is full of grammatical errors, which renders the text almost unusable. Some denoted that there could be theological problems resulting from the grammatical errors. To rectify this difficulty, one has to learn Greek and attempt to amend the text. The other alternative is to construct a new text with the same meaning in Coptic which is what Fr Shenouda Maher did http://www.michellabs.com/joomla/media/system/pdf/Doxology of Our Saints.pdf My understanding is that since Greek was used one Egypt was hellenised, attempting to re-write new texts in Greek - unless correcting a typo - will not be helpful. The majority of the Coptic hymns are written in Coptic. So, it's only logical to carry on the tradition, since the church keeps its music, hymns, language, costumes, hierarchy and even the outline of architecture.
Yea, is there an actual text in Coptic somewhere? The transliteration sounds like Fr. Shenouda's way of pronouncing it, which I'm not saying is wrong, but I'm having trouble just reading it. If he recorded this somewhere also, I'd be interested to hear his version.
Also, I believe @Remnkemi did some research a while back on this.
http://rochcoptsmedia.org/media/Coptic/Contents-English.pdf http://media.stshenoudamonastery.org/ I guess it will be in recording tape 32. The above link is for the contents of his teaching tape. and the lower link has all his audio recordings for Coptic language in Old Bohairic pronunciation. I guess the way he wrote was to emphasise that it was written with rhyme scheme and meter devised for OB pronunciation. I don't think he'd be ever happy if anyone would sing his work in Greco-Bohairic pronunciation. It's not hard to re-write it in Coptic from the translation and the transription.
I'm pretty sure I won't be surprised if he won't be happy, but I think his research is not the end-all-be-all on accurate pronunciation, as far as I'm aware. Language and accents evolve overtime in any language (do a youtube search on the Lord's Prayer in English over the various centuries). Modern-day Greco-Bohairic may be terrible, but not sharing the original Coptic script is just ... well, strange to exclude.
He can offer his pronunciation of the hymn with the script, and add the transliteration if he wants.
I haven't read this entire thread, but Peter from the YouTube channel "Learn Coptic Hymns" did a lesson Agios Yistin (O Kirios shouldn't be its name since thats the ending of Shere Theotoke Parthene) and he gives 2 "forms"- the known one (that has words that make 0 sense and may be theologically flawed because of the nonsensical language) and the corrected one. A church in Canada (I think- I found it once but never again) recorded a CD about the Tamgeed and has the corrected form of the hymn on there.. maybe this helps? Sorry.
Comments
What you are saying makes sense if we are talking about mere poems. Here we are talking about hymns which their purpose is delivering faith in a musical mold, praying to and praising God.
The other point I like to make is that there is a structure of how Coptic verses are structured regardless of the language used and keeping the meaning intact.
you know....you puzzle me sometimes. it looks like your view are just too broad that sometimes they contradict each other.
i can get the part about praying and praising God.....but you also have favored rhymed coptic psalies and hymns and said that it was a crucial part in them being authentic and purely coptic in nature.
in the beginning of this post you said that o kerios was not suitable to be said in the Church for the reason of it's age yet you accept and "newer" version of it (as weak as that sounds)......
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11998.msg142737#msg142737 date=1312759144]
What you are saying makes sense if we are talking about mere poems. Here we are talking about hymns which their purpose is delivering faith in a musical mold, praying to and praising God.
The other point I like to make is that there is a structure of how Coptic verses are structured regardless of the language used and keeping the meaning intact.
you know....you puzzle me sometimes. it looks like your view are just too broad that sometimes they contradict each other.
i can get the part about praying and praising God.....but you also have favored rhymed coptic psalies and hymns and said that it was a crucial part in them being authentic and purely coptic in nature.
in the beginning of this post you said that o kerios was not suitable to be said in the Church for the reason of it's age yet you accept and "newer" version of it (as weak as that sounds)......
Be specific in pointing where you think I contradict myself, so may be I can explain myself better.
O kirios as it stands with its rhyming pattern does not make sense. What does that have to do with authenticity, favoring newer versions, ...
Are you suggesting that newer hymns are not rhyming?
I am sorry. I have to say I am confused by your post.
To rectify this difficulty, one has to learn Greek and attempt to amend the text. The other alternative is to construct a new text with the same meaning in Coptic which is what Fr Shenouda Maher did http://www.michellabs.com/joomla/media/system/pdf/Doxology of Our Saints.pdf
My understanding is that since Greek was used one Egypt was hellenised, attempting to re-write new texts in Greek - unless correcting a typo - will not be helpful. The majority of the Coptic hymns are written in Coptic. So, it's only logical to carry on the tradition, since the church keeps its music, hymns, language, costumes, hierarchy and even the outline of architecture.
It is interesting that in that pdf file the equivalent hymn to Ⲟ Ⲕⲩⲣⲓⲟⲥ is written only in transliterated English!
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ
http://media.stshenoudamonastery.org/
I guess it will be in recording tape 32. The above link is for the contents of his teaching tape. and the lower link has all his audio recordings for Coptic language in Old Bohairic pronunciation.
I guess the way he wrote was to emphasise that it was written with rhyme scheme and meter devised for OB pronunciation.
I don't think he'd be ever happy if anyone would sing his work in Greco-Bohairic pronunciation. It's not hard to re-write it in Coptic from the translation and the transription.