The main problem now is to match the rites that are written down in books with what we do. Meaning, for example, in the books is that on Watos days (Wed-Sat), "We worship ..." is said. Now we have to consider when we do Vespers Saturday night....are we in Saturday where we will say "We worship..." or on sunday where we would say "O come..." ?! the usual was always a mixture for both. HG Bishop Serapion proposes a literal solution: his grace said, if Vespers begins before 6 pm, it is done in the Watos rite, as it is saturday. If after 6 pm, then it is done in the Adam rite, as it is sunday.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9305.msg115178#msg115178 date=1275844038] How much do you think it matters (that is a question not an assertion) as long as the bishop of a diocese has considered the issues and prescribes some uniformity in his diocese?
Fady considers this to be a huge problem because it's actually creating many dialogues that are creating probelms more than it's solving ones. Also this strays from the tradition of the mixture of hymns in Vespers that have been happening for long.
Can one valid answer to this issue be that it remains an open issue for further study and research, but that it is entirely canonical for a bishop to order the rites as they are used in his diocese, within the bounds set by his Synod?
I don't think it's THAT big of a deal to get to the Synod. His grace have his reasons and we also have our reasons. of course i would love full unity in the Church....but sometimes that is just asking toooo much.
This is an interesting thread, but are there not more important things for there to be unity and uniformity about? (That is a question not a statement).
That is not a criticism at all because it is proper and necessary that we seek to preserve our tradition. But if it is not clear what we should do then the bishops are the continuing Apostolic teaching authority in the Church. It is there proper responsibility to order worship in their dioceses as they see best in co-operation with their fellow bishops.
The books you refer to, are they modern or ancient? If they are modern then it does not seem to me that they solve the problem you have described. What are the sources for the most ancient Alexandrian and Egyptian (because I cannot imagine that they were always the same) liturgical practices? Have they been translated into English?
Hi, I haven't been on Tasbeha in a while, but this thread just caught my attention.
Of course the HS has more pressing things to worry about, but while it may be acceptable for a bishop to make up a rule about when to start saying Tenoosht vs Amoini on Saturday nights, how long does his word last? This is what I mean: If one of the succeeding bishops of that same diocese decides to change this rule so that the diocese says tenoosht, regardless of when vespers is prayed on sat. night, what do the churches do?
Doesn't leaving issues like this to the reigning bishop produce more sources of confusion for the congregation than there already is, as well as allow for conflict between bishops who disagree on trivial matters (or at least they're matters too trivial for the HS to handle immediately)?
I believe that the HICS should be the final voice when it comes to this type of issue, as they have more resources to research this topic and come up with a definitive answer that may not be rescinded over time. If the HICS can't come up with a definitive answer, for whatever the reason, then the issue should go the the Holy Synod, not each individual reigning bishop-regardless of how trivial the matter is.
I know the HS is busy, but even if you have to put it on the bottom of its 'to-do' list, eventually it'll get to it. Until then, each church should just follow its own tradition.
This is all based on my opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
thanks Fr. Peter for your comments and questions. As much as they are enlightening they also provide me with food for thought. Now to begin with I have to again say it loud and clear that I'm still learning and I'm a novice. But in addition to what Mina said I always understood that the main goal of Dr. Ragheb Moftah was to unify the hymns in the church and hence to some extent rites through recordings of cantor Mikhail and hics on tapes. Now it saddens me, although I am aware of being a dreamy person, to realise that even though this huge effort was expended that till now there are people deciding on things their own way. The books Mina mentioned I believe are old more reliable ones edited by such teachers of hymns and rites during Dr. Ragheb's era so why is there felt a need to change now?
Father Peter: We cannot just go our own ways. We are Orthodox and we do everything the same, following the tradition. We are one church in Christ. We are supposed to say the same things and do the same things as if we are praying together in one church but in different buildings and times.
[quote author=bishoykhali link=topic=9305.msg115182#msg115182 date=1275859495] Hi, I haven't been on Tasbeha in a while, but this thread just caught my attention.
Of course the HS has more pressing things to worry about, but while it may be acceptable for a bishop to make up a rule about when to start saying Tenoosht vs Amoini on Saturday nights, how long does his word last? This is what I mean: If one of the succeeding bishops of that same diocese decides to change this rule so that the diocese says tenoosht, regardless of when vespers is prayed on sat. night, what do the churches do?
Doesn't leaving issues like this to the reigning bishop produce more sources of confusion for the congregation than there already is, as well as allow for conflict between bishops who disagree on trivial matters (or at least they're matters too trivial for the HS to handle immediately)?
I believe that the HICS should be the final voice when it comes to this type of issue, as they have more resources to research this topic and come up with a definitive answer that may not be rescinded over time. If the HICS can't come up with a definitive answer, for whatever the reason, then the issue should go the the Holy Synod, not each individual reigning bishop-regardless of how trivial the matter is.
I know the HS is busy, but even if you have to put it on the bottom of its 'to-do' list, eventually it'll get to it. Until then, each church should just follow its own tradition.
This is all based on my opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
i agree completely. We cannot just leave this issue alone. One of the many purposes of the Synod is to clear up confusions between other churches and as you can see this is a very big confusion. If someone can get this to a bishop to take to the Synod, that would be great.
My opinion: As we see during Holy Week, the days are from Sunset to Sunset. I would think that since it is Vespers and we are at night which is considered the next day, we should act as if it is the next day. So Saturday night is Sunday and therefore Amoini. In my church, we have English Vespers for Sunday School and Arabic Vespers for the parents. The leader during English Vespers says Tenouosht. 30 min later, the leader for the Arabic says Amoini. Now we have confusion within a church. (The leaders are the same every week) That is my opinon.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9305.msg115181#msg115181 date=1275857054] The books you refer to, are they modern or ancient? If they are modern then it does not seem to me that they solve the problem you have described. What are the sources for the most ancient Alexandrian and Egyptian (because I cannot imagine that they were always the same) liturgical practices? Have they been translated into English?
all books say this. old and new.....maybe new books clarify some things that are not as clear. but that's it.
The rites of the general weekly services hvae been translated long time ago. and if so, we always can go back to the source books that are coptic and arabic and there will always be a deacon around who can read coptic to confirm the rites.
Other than the books, recordings and teaching that are handed down from cantors to deacons and so on also confirm this; this is what annoys Fady the most.
btw....i saw in the youtube videos of the Oriental Orthodox Churches Festival liturgy....awesome.
minagir: Yes, I am aware that all of the texts of the service will show the two sentences. But are their any ancient texts which describe the service in detail and mention the transition from one liturgical day to another?
Neniotee Ethoab: It is not necessarily Orthodox to do the same thing. Indeed our Orthodox communion shows a great variety, and it seems to me that variety is what is most consistent. In the earliest times each bishop composed the prayers for his own community, and would draw on the best that others had already committed to writing. Later, the major sees had their own general forms of liturgy, but these were also always modified by local bishops as was their right. In the Byzantine Church there was as great a variety as in our Orthodox communion, but in the 14th century all variety was swept away and the liturgical practices of Constantinople were centrally imposed. Likewise in the West there was a great variety, and this was also swept away in the 16th century.
So I am not sure that it is necessary that everything always be done in always the same way. This is not the same as saying that laity or priests should do their own thing. But it has always been part of our Orthodox faith that the bishop is the highest authority in his own diocese and has the right to order things as he sees best meets the needs of his flock. If one bishop explains this particular very narrow issue in one way and wishes the practice in his diocese to be consistent with his understanding, and another bishop understands things slightly differently and wishes the practice to be consistent in some other way then this is actually entirely Orthodox.
It does not seem to me that this issue is cut and dried and so it does seem reasonable for bishops to make their own judgement according to the grace given them. In my own life, liturgically speaking, I do what my bishop tells me. I will present my opinion, I will even argue against something, but when he says that he has considered all things and wishes, in his diocese, that a particular thing be done in a particular way, then I just get on with it.
You are quite right that in a particular church, and even a particular diocese, there should not be the confusion you describe. This is not right at all. I would hope that your own bishop would issue some instruction. It should not be left to congregations to choose, or even worse, to adopt two different positions at once. But personally, and only personally, I don't have a problem with different dioceses adopting a different position on this matter. It is not an issue of faith, and it is not diminishing the service, it is a question of interpretation.
In my own life, liturgically speaking, I do what my bishop tells me. I will present my opinion, I will even argue against something, but when he says that he has considered all things and wishes, in his diocese, that a particular thing be done in a particular way, then I just get on with it.
Father Peter
I completely agree here, but ... ???? !!!! [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I asked for clear instruction on this issue from a brother priest who was the first Westerner, I think, to spend his Forty Days in a monastery, and he had been taught by very exact fathers in the monastery that all of the Raising of Evening Incense should be according to Sunday.
This is the practice I am under obedience to follow. (Until instructed otherwise of course).
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9305.msg115240#msg115240 date=1275928528] I asked for clear instruction on this issue from a brother priest who was the first Westerner, I think, to spend his Forty Days in a monastery, and he had been taught by very exact fathers in the monastery that all of the Raising of Evening Incense should be according to Sunday.
This is the practice I am under obedience to follow. (Until instructed otherwise of course).
Father Peter
All Saturday Raising of Incense or every single Vespers???
Comments
The main problem now is to match the rites that are written down in books with what we do. Meaning, for example, in the books is that on Watos days (Wed-Sat), "We worship ..." is said. Now we have to consider when we do Vespers Saturday night....are we in Saturday where we will say "We worship..." or on sunday where we would say "O come..." ?!
the usual was always a mixture for both.
HG Bishop Serapion proposes a literal solution: his grace said, if Vespers begins before 6 pm, it is done in the Watos rite, as it is saturday. If after 6 pm, then it is done in the Adam rite, as it is sunday.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9305.msg115178#msg115178 date=1275844038]
How much do you think it matters (that is a question not an assertion) as long as the bishop of a diocese has considered the issues and prescribes some uniformity in his diocese?
Fady considers this to be a huge problem because it's actually creating many dialogues that are creating probelms more than it's solving ones. Also this strays from the tradition of the mixture of hymns in Vespers that have been happening for long. I don't think it's THAT big of a deal to get to the Synod. His grace have his reasons and we also have our reasons. of course i would love full unity in the Church....but sometimes that is just asking toooo much.
That is not a criticism at all because it is proper and necessary that we seek to preserve our tradition. But if it is not clear what we should do then the bishops are the continuing Apostolic teaching authority in the Church. It is there proper responsibility to order worship in their dioceses as they see best in co-operation with their fellow bishops.
The books you refer to, are they modern or ancient? If they are modern then it does not seem to me that they solve the problem you have described. What are the sources for the most ancient Alexandrian and Egyptian (because I cannot imagine that they were always the same) liturgical practices? Have they been translated into English?
Father Peter
Of course the HS has more pressing things to worry about, but while it may be acceptable for a bishop to make up a rule about when to start saying Tenoosht vs Amoini on Saturday nights, how long does his word last?
This is what I mean:
If one of the succeeding bishops of that same diocese decides to change this rule so that the diocese says tenoosht, regardless of when vespers is prayed on sat. night, what do the churches do?
Doesn't leaving issues like this to the reigning bishop produce more sources of confusion for the congregation than there already is, as well as allow for conflict between bishops who disagree on trivial matters (or at least they're matters too trivial for the HS to handle immediately)?
I believe that the HICS should be the final voice when it comes to this type of issue, as they have more resources to research this topic and come up with a definitive answer that may not be rescinded over time. If the HICS can't come up with a definitive answer, for whatever the reason, then the issue should go the the Holy Synod, not each individual reigning bishop-regardless of how trivial the matter is.
I know the HS is busy, but even if you have to put it on the bottom of its 'to-do' list, eventually it'll get to it. Until then, each church should just follow its own tradition.
This is all based on my opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
[quote author=bishoykhali link=topic=9305.msg115182#msg115182 date=1275859495]
Hi, I haven't been on Tasbeha in a while, but this thread just caught my attention.
Of course the HS has more pressing things to worry about, but while it may be acceptable for a bishop to make up a rule about when to start saying Tenoosht vs Amoini on Saturday nights, how long does his word last?
This is what I mean:
If one of the succeeding bishops of that same diocese decides to change this rule so that the diocese says tenoosht, regardless of when vespers is prayed on sat. night, what do the churches do?
Doesn't leaving issues like this to the reigning bishop produce more sources of confusion for the congregation than there already is, as well as allow for conflict between bishops who disagree on trivial matters (or at least they're matters too trivial for the HS to handle immediately)?
I believe that the HICS should be the final voice when it comes to this type of issue, as they have more resources to research this topic and come up with a definitive answer that may not be rescinded over time. If the HICS can't come up with a definitive answer, for whatever the reason, then the issue should go the the Holy Synod, not each individual reigning bishop-regardless of how trivial the matter is.
I know the HS is busy, but even if you have to put it on the bottom of its 'to-do' list, eventually it'll get to it. Until then, each church should just follow its own tradition.
This is all based on my opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.
i agree completely. We cannot just leave this issue alone. One of the many purposes of the Synod is to clear up confusions between other churches and as you can see this is a very big confusion. If someone can get this to a bishop to take to the Synod, that would be great.
My opinion:
As we see during Holy Week, the days are from Sunset to Sunset. I would think that since it is Vespers and we are at night which is considered the next day, we should act as if it is the next day. So Saturday night is Sunday and therefore Amoini. In my church, we have English Vespers for Sunday School and Arabic Vespers for the parents. The leader during English Vespers says Tenouosht. 30 min later, the leader for the Arabic says Amoini. Now we have confusion within a church. (The leaders are the same every week) That is my opinon.
The books you refer to, are they modern or ancient? If they are modern then it does not seem to me that they solve the problem you have described. What are the sources for the most ancient Alexandrian and Egyptian (because I cannot imagine that they were always the same) liturgical practices? Have they been translated into English?
all books say this. old and new.....maybe new books clarify some things that are not as clear. but that's it.
The rites of the general weekly services hvae been translated long time ago. and if so, we always can go back to the source books that are coptic and arabic and there will always be a deacon around who can read coptic to confirm the rites.
Other than the books, recordings and teaching that are handed down from cantors to deacons and so on also confirm this; this is what annoys Fady the most.
btw....i saw in the youtube videos of the Oriental Orthodox Churches Festival liturgy....awesome.
This is not a source problem, weather through the Books or the Recordings......
the problem is what to say at this SPECIFIC TIME of Saturday night.
Neniotee Ethoab: It is not necessarily Orthodox to do the same thing. Indeed our Orthodox communion shows a great variety, and it seems to me that variety is what is most consistent. In the earliest times each bishop composed the prayers for his own community, and would draw on the best that others had already committed to writing. Later, the major sees had their own general forms of liturgy, but these were also always modified by local bishops as was their right. In the Byzantine Church there was as great a variety as in our Orthodox communion, but in the 14th century all variety was swept away and the liturgical practices of Constantinople were centrally imposed. Likewise in the West there was a great variety, and this was also swept away in the 16th century.
So I am not sure that it is necessary that everything always be done in always the same way. This is not the same as saying that laity or priests should do their own thing. But it has always been part of our Orthodox faith that the bishop is the highest authority in his own diocese and has the right to order things as he sees best meets the needs of his flock. If one bishop explains this particular very narrow issue in one way and wishes the practice in his diocese to be consistent with his understanding, and another bishop understands things slightly differently and wishes the practice to be consistent in some other way then this is actually entirely Orthodox.
It does not seem to me that this issue is cut and dried and so it does seem reasonable for bishops to make their own judgement according to the grace given them. In my own life, liturgically speaking, I do what my bishop tells me. I will present my opinion, I will even argue against something, but when he says that he has considered all things and wishes, in his diocese, that a particular thing be done in a particular way, then I just get on with it.
You are quite right that in a particular church, and even a particular diocese, there should not be the confusion you describe. This is not right at all. I would hope that your own bishop would issue some instruction. It should not be left to congregations to choose, or even worse, to adopt two different positions at once. But personally, and only personally, I don't have a problem with different dioceses adopting a different position on this matter. It is not an issue of faith, and it is not diminishing the service, it is a question of interpretation.
Father Peter
In my own life, liturgically speaking, I do what my bishop tells me. I will present my opinion, I will even argue against something, but when he says that he has considered all things and wishes, in his diocese, that a particular thing be done in a particular way, then I just get on with it.
Father Peter
I completely agree here, but ... ???? !!!!
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
This is the practice I am under obedience to follow. (Until instructed otherwise of course).
Father Peter
I asked for clear instruction on this issue from a brother priest who was the first Westerner, I think, to spend his Forty Days in a monastery, and he had been taught by very exact fathers in the monastery that all of the Raising of Evening Incense should be according to Sunday.
This is the practice I am under obedience to follow. (Until instructed otherwise of course).
Father Peter
All Saturday Raising of Incense or every single Vespers???
I am only reporting what I have been taught.
Father Peter