Proverbs 7:10? I see a lot of women in church wearing not modest lately.

edited February 28 in Faith Issues
I am not here to judge or condemn, and I hope I am not coming off this way in any manner. 

However, I am confused and conflicted at why/how are parents permitting their young women and daughters to dress in such a promiscuous manner, especially in the Holy Church. 

It is very sad that I am seeing a lot of Coptic women in their 20's dressing in very high heels, tight clothing, short skirts, crop tops. :(

I could care less if this is a "trend." Yes, a trend for non-believers and atheists, but we're Christians, especially Orthodox. Our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit and this is disrespectful to the Holy Spirit and God. I find it hypocritical how others shun or condemn women who are unwed mothers or have fallen into sexual sin, yet they or their parents allow their children to dress in such a manner. 

Dressing in this way is no different.

Comments

  • Hello @MarinaM,
    I agree with you that nowadays this has been becoming a problem. It deeply saddens me that when we are comparing and contrasting our Church and how people dress, to other churches and how modest people dress for church and how early they come for church is really sad. Thank God, more Abounas, servants, and parents are increasingly speaking to this problem as it is worsening every day as one looks at another and follows the “trend.” It is something that we should pray about that God may open their eyes to really see what is behind coming to church and that we really meet with God inside His church, and protect the Holy Spirit within us so that it may protect us. Thank you for your post! May God bless our churches and teach us how to behave in His Holy House and partake of that amazing glory. God bless you.
  • How about, "mind your own business"? Both you and Proverbs.
  • You must live in New Jersey.
  • Dear @CopticApostate,
    Why the aggressive attitude, and especially towards the word of God? If you have your own beliefs and other ideas you should not come to a Christian website, unless you are craving a past relationship with God/church and want to learn more.. In this case, please be humble..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • @ophadece 

    This is me being neutral. Every Abrahamic religion has a list of rules and guidelines on what women should do, say and wear, as though they were either children or property. We currently live in the 21st century and every mature adult of sane mind should have agency for themselves, regardless of gender. The reason I'm here is because your admins haven't removed me yet, simple as that. Though I do appreciate a space where I can engage opposing views and actually be able to finish my sentence without getting interrupted - which is more than I can say about my ex-church.
  • Dear @CopticApostate,
    Thank you very much for replying to me, and yes I am so glad that you came here for opposing views and arguments.. That is a sign of maturity.. My original question was really driving at the potential of you not wanting to be here but I am glad you want to debate things. Now correct me if I am wrong but by saying things like ex-church as well as your name implies that you may not like what I am going to say so much..
    I take your point about religion/authority having a specific set of rules but that's exactly it.. There must be rules for any organisation, not excluding religion, for the members to belong, be distinguished, and avoid anarchy. Now you may not like it but these rules have been passed down by our forefathers who were close in time to Christ. Christ Himself said He didn't come to change but to fulfil. Why would He not change what's been there at least 5000 years before? And why would what He said be relevant more than 2000 years after? Because He doesn't change. From a philosophical point of view if ideologies continue to change with the passing of generations, then there is no such a thing as philosophy, or science, or art, or anything.. Life becomes meaningless and goalless.. I can assure you that this is not the Christian outlook..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • While what @CopticApostate is a bit aggressive of a response, i am sure the intention is not too far from the Christian view. Christianity is does NOT force it's believers to do anything...neither does it force them to be Christians at all. But, it's clear that in Christianity that we are to lead by example...in almost all cases.

    There are enough monastic stories of fathers teaching their disciples what to do or how to correct themselves by example through incidents that were setup by those father to lead by example. This is the way it should be. For everyone to learn in Church. And when a person doesn't rebuke himself when he sees the example to be, then there is something wrong and larger problem to deal with it.

    @CopticApostate "mind your own business" is his way of saying "you be a Christian in Church, and I will maybe learn from you." The Bible and the entire book of Proverbs specifically is full of examples and role models for us to learn from and live by...but not be forced to do so. We must willingly want to do so. 
  • I have and want no authority to comment on what women should or shouldn't wear in Church, but there is an underlying topic here that I find interesting.

    With the exception of the Head of the Church being Christ Himself, the rest of the Church is entirely made up of sinners. We are all doing what we can to be Christ-like, but we all fall short. Often, one person's shortcoming can be a serious hindrance to another person's ability to pray and/or repent of their sins. I suggest that both the person with the shortcoming and the one with the hindrance are sinners, but I'm not sure of what can be done.

    I don't recall being all that distracted by someone else's clothing, but I have been significantly affected by someone's behavior. I've actually left a church over it. What I learned from the experience was that if I didn't carry some of the blame for the issue I was having I wouldn't have had the issue. I had issues on my side that made me overly sensitive to the other person's behavior.

    When I was in that situation, I used an odd metaphor to try to explain the issue I was having. I said that it was as though I had a sunburn and this guy in the church insisted on slapping my shoulder every time he saw me. He insisted that he did it to express friendship and should not have to change his behavior. I didn't blame him for my sunburn, but I needed him to understand that he was causing me pain and I needed him to stop.

    I never considered myself "better" than him, but the solution to my problem required action on his part. In my particular story, he was not inclined to adjust his behavior and I ended up looking for another church.

    I think the discussion here is similar. If everyone in the church had their focus fully on God it wouldn't matter what anyone was wearing. Unfortunately, many of us are too distractable for our own good. A distracted person is distracted because of his/her own sinful nature. At the same time though, I think it is very unkind of someone to completely disregard the fact that their choices affect others.
  • that is a great commentary that applies well to clothing.
    if we were all pure, we could all come to church naked and it would not be a problem (like adam and eve before they sinned).
    but as some of our brothers and sisters are easily distracted, lets check in the mirror before leaving the house (also try the view bending down as and if you are tall, save up / ask for a longer t shirt that covers the parts that become naked).
    if you look 'hot', alter your clothing before leaving the house!

    also may God heal all our 'sunburn' so we don't even notice each others' faults.
  • @minatasgeel 

    Thanks for the sentiment but I meant exactly what I said here. Mind your own business means, keep out of the affairs of others if they do not cause anyone physical, emotional or mental harm. Such an attitude is not displayed in most parts of the bible and definitely not in the Coptic church. I mean it, leave others be. 

    It does NOT mean, "hey, be a good Christian and I'll learn from you and 'repent'!" 

    Do not put words in my mouth.
  • edited March 16
    @CopticApostate

    What if they cause certain young men spiritual harm by serving as a means of temptation, and for others in terms of being distracting in Church?

    I mean, again - would it be a problem if someone came into Church naked? What if they were protesting the Church and interrupted the Liturgy? Or should we mind our own problems?

    I regularly go to a Chalcedonian Church as of now, and when I first went there, I wore shorts. I was scolded by like three different people at in one day, and now I don’t wear shorts.

    You don’t know what people’s intentions are - maybe they don’t know better, or maybe they are there to draw attention to themselves - the latter which is antithetical to the purpose of the Liturgy, hence why the Priest faces the altar.

    And I don’t know what your beliefs are, but I don’t think an apostate should be entitled to tell the Church what to do, especially when it’s not even a part of their life and shouldn’t matter to them.

    But I’m just sharing my opinion.
  • edited March 16
    @CopticApostate
    You obviously have lived and/or were born in the west for so long you completely misinterpret the lack of individuality in an Eastern cultures,such as Egypt. I am not ethically Egyptian and grew up in the U.S., but I have been married to a Copt from Cairo for 16 years. I know a fair amount about your culture and can look at things from an outside perspective and still understand the inside.
    A good portion of our planet doesn't have the benefit of, "minding their own business", especially women.
    As the person posting this is obviously a woman, she has a point.
    I agree to keep things to yourself, and I would probably agree with you in many things, but in regards to conducting yourself in a proper manner at church, it isn't about keeping it to yourself.
    That's like saying if you have anorexia, eat more. Life isn't that simple.
    You don't want or need me to lecture you, and I am trying my best not to sound like a douche. Your attitude is so westernized, the third generation American whose words you are reading is insulted by your ignorance.
    I have no issue with a woman wanting to wear what they want, but would you go to a job interview in a spaghetti strap top and jeans and say, "Mind your business, I wear what I want."?
  • edited March 17

    Saint Mary the Copt
    who fled to the desert and was found naked wandering around by a monk
    – she covered her body up with his cloak…I have enormous
    reservations about the story of her life – primarily due to it
    suited the misogynistic era to portray & have a formerly wanton
    woman self flagellating in the desert for her sins rather than being
    integrated into society as a valued person daughter of the Most High God who changed her
    lifestyle…. There are males who also abused their sexuality but
    none were found wandering in the desert self flagellating about it
    all What about Christs forgiveness & your sins being blotted out
    forever… I digress…

     If females rock up to church dressed
    seductively they are classified as whore like If a male rocks up to
    church looking rough unkempt – he is just one of the boys… Myself
    I think it is just commonsense to present with modest attire when it
    comes to things of God… How we present ourselves in physical realm
    is often a strong indicator of where we are at… It is important imo to
    recognise that many males and females in the sex work industry
    instinctively know to cover their bodies adequately when in a
    religious setting yet so called believers with non traumatic
    lifestyles or self declared adherents of Christian morality cannot wait
    to wear sexualized clothing… call it trendy. 

    NB The fashion
    industry took and takes a lot of inspiration from the sex
    work/pornography/bondage and sado masochism fetish industry … If
    sex workers know not to flaunt and give their bodies away for free
    (in visual & monetary facets) how hard it is for a Christian to
    honor God by covering their bodies adequately. Our bodies are the
    Ark. The double standard is present in churches – a riddle of
    hypocrisy…





  • @ MarinaM RE 'I find it hypocritical how others shun or condemn women who are unwed mothers or have fallen into sexual sin, yet they or their parents allow their children to dress in such a manner. '  
    Yes so do I... It is best to attack the hypocrisy rather than externalisations of how a person dresses. Explore the whys... In my life experience some of the most modestly dressed individuals are the rotten ones... Nothing is what it seems...
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