His Holiness should be called Theodorus II

edited November 2012 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Tawadros is an arabized deviation of Theororus, just as Gawargios is an arabized deviation of Georgios.  Tawadros should be Theodorus just as Gawargios should be Georgios.

As Coptic Orthodoxy spreads throughout the world, the name of Theodorus II will facilitate affininity with previous Orthodox Patriarchs, will be easier to remember among the Other Orthodox Patriarchates, both Eastern and Oriental, and will be easier to pronounce for all Orthodox along with English speakers.

His Holiness is already called by the name Theodoros II on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coptic_Popes
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Comments

  • I just realize that this may cause confusion as the Eastern (Greek) Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandira is also called Theodoros II, who replaced Petros VII since 2004.

    No worries, though, we can call the Coptic Patriarch Theodorus the II, as opposed to the Greek Patriarch, who is Theodoros the II
  • His name is Tawadros! Just leave it at that. You don't call someone named Kyrillos, Cyril! His name is Tawadros and Theodorus is in a different language.
  • The White House
    Office of the Press Secretary

    For Immediate Release November 04, 2012
    Statement by the Press Secretary on the Selection of the Coptic Pope

    The President sends his warm congratulations to Coptic Orthodox Christians and all Egyptians on the joyous occasion of the selection of Bishop Tawadros as the 118th Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of all Africa on the Holy See of St. Mark the Apostle.  The United States shares Bishop Tawadros' commitment to unity, tolerance, and interfaith dialogue.  We wish him great success in leading the Middle East’s largest Christian community during a time of great change in the region, and reaffirm our strong support for religious freedom and mutual respect among people of all faiths.  The American people will continue to stand with Egyptians of every faith as they work to fulfill the goals of their revolution, including freedom, dignity, and economic opportunity.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/11/04/statement-press-secretary-selection-coptic-pope?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
  • [quote author=metouro link=topic=13840.msg160947#msg160947 date=1352137529]
    Tawadros is an arabized deviation of Theororus, just as Gawargios is an arabized deviation of Georgios.  Tawadros should be Theodorus just as Gawargios should be Georgios.

    As Coptic Orthodoxy spreads throughout the world, the name of Theodorus II will facilitate affininity with previous Orthodox Patriarchs, will be easier to remember among the Other Orthodox Patriarchates, both Eastern and Oriental, and will be easier to pronounce for all Orthodox along with English speakers.

    His Holiness is already called by the name Theodoros II on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coptic_Popes


    I would have to agree with this.

    But what's weighing on my mind moreover is that Tawadorus isn't toing to go down well in Aketchi Etkharis Hymn. Try it. Sing it using Tawadarous and the Theodorous.

    A child's name should reflect the personality, the culture, the nationality of the parents. I'm not going to call my son Sven (a swedish name) if I'm Coptic living in the UK.

  • [quote author=metouro link=topic=13840.msg160948#msg160948 date=1352138211]
    I just realize that this may cause confusion as the Eastern (Greek) Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandira is also called Theodoros II, who replaced Petros VII since 2004.

    No worries, though, we can call the Coptic Patriarch Theodorus the II, as opposed to the Greek Patriarch, who is Theodoros the II

    This proves my point. Find me one name, word or noun in proper English that has two different spellings. There's only one way to spell Theodore. If there's two different spellings, then it's not English (or it's different dialects of English. Do we really want to promote Arabish or proper American English?)

  • So...like how do we right his name in coptic?
    Wats does the name tawadros in coptic look like?
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=13840.msg160960#msg160960 date=1352153686]
    So...like how do we right his name in coptic?
    Wats does the name tawadros in coptic look like?

    that's something that i have been thinking about since yesterday.....

  • How can we have Tawadros 1 then Theodorus 11? It would have to be Tawadros 1, then Tawadros 11.
  • [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13840.msg160962#msg160962 date=1352156710]

    How can we have Tawadros 1 then Theodorus 11? It would have to be Tawadros 1, then Tawadros 11.

    the names are both equivalent. Pope Shenouda the 1st (or maybe the second) was Senoutios (Cenou;ioc) and not Shenouda
  • I hope people aren't taking this too far and causing some kind of a discord because of each person's opinion.. names are not translated FULL STOP.. my name is always Fady, can't be redeemer in English and sodair in coptic.. Peter cannot be Botros in Egypt..
    secondly, Tawadros and Tadros are both spelt as the Greek name Theodoros as in the assembly of saints.
    Oujai
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13840.msg160966#msg160966 date=1352157530]
    [quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13840.msg160962#msg160962 date=1352156710]

    How can we have Tawadros 1 then Theodorus 11? It would have to be Tawadros 1, then Tawadros 11.

    the names are both equivalent. Pope Shenouda the 1st (or maybe the second) was Senoutios (Cenou;ioc) and not Shenouda

    There is a little difference here. Senoutios is Greek and Shenouda is Coptic. However, Tawadros is exactly Theodoros with an OB pronunciation. They are not two different dialects or languages, just a different pronunciation. Both are :eodoroc in Coptic script. In other words, the 45th patriarch of the Coptic Church was :eodoroc pihouit and the 118th patriarch will be :eodoroc pimah `cnau. The problem is not the Coptic, Joshuaa. The problem is the English transliteration. Since there is no standard transliteration, both Tawadros I/Theodorus II or Theodorus I/Tawadros II or Theodorus I/Theodorus II or Tawadros I or Tawadros II can be acceptable.

    I am claiming that the English translation should always be Theodore, not Theodorus or Tawadros. In an English context, we should always use the English word Mary, not the transliteration Mariam or Maryam or Miriam or Maryem. Lists like Wikipedia should have Theodore. If you look at the Greek list of Ecumenical patriarchs, they don't have Theodorus. They have Theodore I in 667 AD. Even though Greeks prefer to call their current ecumenical patriarch Bartholomeos, he is listed as Bartholomew. And the English diaspora calls him Bartholomew.
  • Listing in Wikipedia is something and church usage is something else.. popes' names shouldn't be translated as opposed to st. Mary and Christ for obvious reasons.. they are known by such names across ALL worldly cultures, but coptic saints aren't necessarily and really shouldn't be the same within the coptic church, her liturgical books and services
    oujai
  • No. St Mary is known as Mariam in Arabic. Christ is known as Al-Masseh. No one ever said, "ishfaee fena ya Mary om al Christ". In a bilingual environment, this would be fine. But in a proper Arabic environment, it's not ok. We use these Mariam and al-masseh in an Arabic context because they are proper Arabic names. We don't use English transliterations in Arabic when there are proper Arabic equivalents. Theodore is a proper English name. In an English text, Theodore should be used, not a transliteration.

    I don't understand what you mean by "Coptic saints aren't necessarily and really shouldn't be the same within the Coptic church" This isn't about name popularity. It's about proper English usage, both in non-religious and religious environments.
  • Well remenkimi I don't think you understood my post at all.. I did mean usage of Mary and Christ in English and their translations in Arabic and other languages.. this shouldn't be the case with coptic names within the coptic church.. not talking about Wikipedia or other websites
    oujai
  • Someone went into Wikipedia and changed it to"Tawadros (Theodoros) II (2012–Present)"

    Yesterday, it was Just "Theodoros II"
  • And if you look inside the article, you'll see whoever changed this uses "Pope Theodore" and "Pope Theodorus". If you look in the history of the page, there are already multiple revisions that were rejected. It's bad English to use transliteration when an acceptable translation is common.
  • Ok wait...but I still didnt get an answer to my question...let's say in a book...
    if we replaced all the shenouda with tawadros...wat it be in coptic?
    Ex. Through their prayers, keep the life of our honored father the high priest, Papa Abba(Shenouda), O Lord...
    AND Hiten nou`eu,[email protected] `areh `e`pwnq `mpenwit ettaiyout `n`ar,y`[email protected] papa abba Senouda @P=o=c ari`hmot nan `mpi,w `ebol `nte nennobi.

    NOW...HOW DO YOU WRITE IT?
    Through their prayers, keep the life of our honored father the high priest, Papa Abba(Tawadros), O Lord...AGREED BUT HB BELOW?
    Hiten nou`eu,[email protected] `areh `e`pwnq `mpenwit ettaiyout `n`ar,y`[email protected] papa abba Senouda @P=o=c ari`hmot nan `mpi,w `ebol `nte nennobi.
    How do you replace Shenouda? Do you write tawadros..if yes, how do you write it in coptic letters if there is no letter 'wow' in coptic? or do you write theodorus...in which case that's not his name...
  • Dear Cyril97,
    why are you confused? You write Tawadros in English, and in coptic it's the same spelling as the Greek Theodoros.. the pronunciation is different between Coptic and Greek, not the spelling
    oujai
  • I am just confused because in the case of Pope Shenouda and Pope Kyrillos,
    their names' pronounciation were the same both in english and coptic and arabic...
    Like even though pope Shenouda's name in coptic was actually Cenouthioc and pope
    Kyrillos's names is Cyril in english...but we always said the name of their ordination.
    In pope Tawadros' case, its different then both of them? His name is written different in coptic?
    So like in a tri-langual book i.e. english, arabic, coptic liturgical book, Tawadros is written
    Theodorus, so it should be said Theodorus...but that's not the name he's ordained with...
    Do you understand my confusion?
    Cyril97
  • I can see exactly where you're coming from.. sorry to say that that was brought about through flawed teaching of the Coptic language.. why was Shenouda pronounced like so in both English and Arabic until recently with the more forceful move of modernisation, i.e. falsification? In these trilingual media, how was it written? Originally Shenouda the proper Coptic name, but recently Shenouti the erroneous one. It's the same case with Tawadros.. Theodoros is a Greek name not a proper Coptic one..
    take this as an example: how do you pronounce the name of the the name of the French football player Thierry Henry? You may wrongly think it's /henri/ until a French person does it as /onri/ and then you realise your mistake.. that's his name and he's known within his community as such, same case with the pope.. no innovation needed
    oujai
  • Thanks orphadece, I get what your saying...(BTW, I know french...so tht example was pretty ironic) lol
    But anyways, now that you understand my question, how do you write H.H.'s name in the "coptic column"?
    Your example simply supports the idea that Tawadros should also be Tawadrso in coptic...so wat's it
    supposed to be? Theodorus or Tawadros? And if it's the latter, how do u actually write Tawadros in coptic?
    Appreciate it alot,
    Cyril97
  • Tawadros is Coptic for the Greek Theodorus, and both spell as :eodoroc
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • Just a quick question.

    Wouldn't the application of OB mean that :eodoroc would be pronounced as Tawodoros. Why does the 2nd 'o' disappear? I mean, the fact that Arabic pronounces a name in a certain way, doesn't mean that OB has the exact same pronunciation. In many cases it does, but in some cases it is different right?

    For example the English word David:
    Dawood in Arabic (right?)
    and Dawid (or maybe David) in OB.
  • Tawadros is not an Arabic pronunciation.. David is a "translateable" name but Tawadros is not.. the pronunciation of the latter is Coptic and transcribed into Arabic, as is the case with Shenouda, Kirollos, Youssab (translated into Youssef in Arabic), Athanasius, etc etc..
    oujai
  • Is it now clear how should we call the Pope in English?

    Theodore, Theodoros or Tawadros?
  • [quote author=Servos link=topic=13840.msg163999#msg163999 date=1364393065]
    Is it now clear how should we call the Pope in English?

    Theodore, Theodoros or Tawadros?


    Tawadros.
  • [quote author=caji link=topic=13840.msg164005#msg164005 date=1364413651]
    [quote author=Servos link=topic=13840.msg163999#msg163999 date=1364393065]
    Is it now clear how should we call the Pope in English?

    Theodore, Theodoros or Tawadros?


    Tawadros.


    Amen.
  • It's not a matter of clarity, it's a matter of consensus (or politics).

    Theodore is the Anglicized name. Anglicized names are usually the standard used in English compositions. We don't say the St. Yoannes Gospel in English, we say St. John's Gospel.

    Theodoros is the Greek name and the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation of the proper name.

    Tawadros is the Old Bohairic and Arabic pronunciation of an alternate spelling of the proper name.

    There is no confusion in this. The confusion lies in the consensus of what we should call our new pope. The consensus among the Alexandrian Greeks is to call their pope (with the same proper name) Theodoros in Greek writings and most English writings but sometimes Theodore. The consensus among the Copts is to use the Arabic name Tawadros. The confusion lies in what he should be called in English. Because of cultural pressure (often dictated by political trends as Ophadece commented on Henri's French name), the Old Bohairic or Arabic pronunciation is used instead of the Greek or Anglicized versions.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13840.msg164012#msg164012 date=1364424771]
    It's not a matter of clarity, it's a matter of consensus (or politics).

    Theodore is the Anglicized name. Anglicized names are usually the standard used in English compositions. We don't say the St. Yoannes Gospel in English, we say St. John's Gospel.

    Theodoros is the Greek name and the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation of the proper name.

    Tawadros is the Old Bohairic and Arabic pronunciation of an alternate spelling of the proper name.

    There is no confusion in this. The confusion lies in the consensus of what we should call our new pope. The consensus among the Alexandrian Greeks is to call their pope (with the same proper name) Theodoros in Greek writings and most English writings but sometimes Theodore. The consensus among the Copts is to use the Arabic name Tawadros. The confusion lies in what he should be called in English. Because of cultural pressure (often dictated by political trends as Ophadece commented on Henri's French name), the Old Bohairic or Arabic pronunciation is used instead of the Greek or Anglicized versions.


    That was my question  :)
    What is ENGLISH standard. Because this is forum in English  :)
  • Dear remenkimi,
    Tawadros isn't an Arabic name, nor an Arabic pronunciation..
    oujai
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