Our Church and Roman Catholic Sacraments

I know some of the other Oriental Orthodox Churches (lamentably) allow their faithful to commune from Roman Catholic Churches under certain circumstances, but does the Coptic Holy Synod recognize the Roman Catholic Eucharist? Whenever I pass an Orthodox Church (whether EO or OO) I cross myself out of veneration for their Eucharist, so I am curious to hear our Church's perspective on RC Sacraments.

Peace.
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Comments

  • The Coptic Holy Synod recognizes none of the Roman Catholic Sacraments.  To my knowledge, we only recognize the baptism of EO churches that recognize ours.  I think the only EO Eucharist we recognize is the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria's, and only when given to a Copt that is married to a person from that church.  Of course to recognize that, probably means we recognize their Holy Orders, etc.

    With respect to the EO at large, I think it's more formal procedures than substantive issues that's standing in the way. 
  • [quote author=COPT.Mark link=topic=12200.msg143761#msg143761 date=1314506156]
    The Coptic Holy Synod recognizes none of the Roman Catholic Sacraments.  To my knowledge, we only recognize the baptism of EO churches that recognize ours.  I think the only EO Eucharist we recognize is the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria's, and only when given to a Copt that is married to a person from that church.  Of course to recognize that, probably means we recognize their Holy Orders, etc.

    With respect to the EO at large, I think it's more formal procedures than substantive issues that's standing in the way. 
    Actually, I am pretty positive that our Church recognizes the Eucharist of ALL the EO Churches. But, if I am wrong correct me. I have been told that all the OO synods have officially declared them to be Orthodox. But of course, just because we don't intercommune with all the EO Churches like the Greek Alexandrian Church doesn't necessarily mean we don't recognize their Eucharist. Just because the Bishops are divided doesn't make their Eucharist less grace-filled/"valid" (to use a Latin catholic theological term).
  • I'm just curious, but why is everyone using the term EO for the RC? The RC are not part of the EO. - I know the Byzantine Rite of the RC is indeed VERY close to the EO, and it is quite common for them to become EO's, but inherently, whoever is under Rome, is not part of the EO. Please do correct me if I'm wrong on this.

    This is a strange topic really - because our Sunday School teacher (who is quite a good theologian) said that although we do not permit our faithful to partake of the RC sacraments, the Eucharist is indeed the Body of Christ.

    OK.. so my question is this, if we do recognise (supposedly) that the Eucharist on the altar in the RC church is indeed the Body of Christ, then why do we not also recognise their baptism also. That means that their marriages are not recognised.

    Remarkable. That means that the Coptic Orthodox Church sees every devout catholic who is married as living in spiritual adultery ??? It means every catholic saint that was baptised still needs to be baptised to enter heaven?

    There's Pier Giorgio Frasati - he gave his life to serving the poor the point he caught polio from them and died. He is a contemporary saint in their Church.

    I know that Fr. Peter sees the Eucharist in the RC as a mere blessing, but where does he draw the line? Is their baptism also a blessing? Is not a real sacrament? Are there confessions real?

    I was going to the RC for many years and engaging in their sacraments (simply because where I was at the time meant that the Coptic Church was not practical and very hard to attend). I indeed did confess to a Catholic priest on many times.

    When it was practical and logistically reasonable for me to attend the COC, I spoke to my Father of Confession and told him that I had confessed to a catholic priest as there were no Coptic priests near where I lived at all. I asked him if i had to reconfess my sins again

    He said "No.. just give me a brief summary".

    What does that mean? What does it mean a "Brief summary" - it means that my confession was partially accepted at the RC??

    Isn't this a bit odd??

    This is my opinion:

    The RC REALLY REALLY needs to return back to Orthodoxy (for its own sake). The Coptic Orthodox Church has truly kept the faith since the apostles, and I congratulate it at least for that. Secondly, I don't think its right to have communion in the RC unless there are exceptional circumstances, not because it is or is not the Body of Christ, but rather its because of one thing:

    Where is the blood in the RC? Why does the priest consecrate ONE large wafer to become the Body of Christ , yet the congregation only partake of smaller wafers....

    I'm not saying that its NOT the Body of Christ, but i think as an Orthodox Christian, it would not be wise to take communion there if you are used to the Eucharist in its fullness (which is what we have).

    Having said all that, i do think that Catholics are saved. I do therefore believe that their Sacraments are valid. Their priesthood originated from the Apostles also, which means that their priesthood is valid. All that is missing from them is orthodoxy.

    I don't know, but i do admit, even though its easier for me to attend the RC, i still prefer the COC as the depth of the liturgy, the respect and execution of the sacraments, and the spiritual nourishment is far greater.
  • Zoxsasi, wouldn't your situation be a good example of economia exercised for you on behalf of your priest, and as such not a reason to posit that RC sacraments are "valid"?

  • [quote author=dzheremi link=topic=12200.msg143771#msg143771 date=1314514017]
    Zoxsasi, wouldn't your situation be a good example of economia exercised for you on behalf of your priest, and as such not a reason to posit that RC sacraments are "valid"?




    Its a totally confusing situation. I must admit!

    But then this begs the question: does the Coptic Orthodox Church see that everyone who is Catholic as not saved? Only he who believes and is baptised is saved. If they believe and are not baptised, then where does this leave them?

    Is mother Theresa saved?
    Is Pier Giorgio Frasati saved?
    Is Pope JP II saved?

    Are the millions of married Catholic Christians not saved because they are not "really really married" ???

    My conclusion that their sacraments are valid is based on the above logic. Its not someone's fault if he was born Catholic!! I knew about Orthodoxy thanks to my parents. Their parents were catholic. Indeed, now I know both Churches, its clear that Orthodoxy is the best way. It will even save the Catholic Church from its own internal problems. It needs to return to Orthodoxy.

    My sunday school teacher expressed to us that the Eucharist in the RC IS the real deal. Yet what can I make from my FOC's comment? Its as if he's saying that the confession in the RC was partially accepted?? HOW??
  • Zoxasi you're extremely intelligent and wise in your thought process. Unfortunately with my experiences in our beautiful church is that erryone will give you a different answer. Some will say only the Coptic will enter the kingdom some say only orthodox and catholic. And apparently we worry about who elses sacraments are wrong and whose are right instead of focusing on who accepts and consecrated those sacraments. IT IS THE LORD JESUS HIMSELF WHO MAKES THESE SACRAMENTS INTO WHAT WE BELIEVE THEM TO HE. who are we o say this is real or fake. God is much more simple we make him sooooooooo difficult! Habibi my few words of advice is to not bother asking those questions lol because I have and gotten shutdown by many closed minds. Take ur thoughts and use them to see god in the true loving god that he is and not a set of rules on whose communion we accept or don't accept! Or baptism for that matter or any other thing that another Bridgman denomination does! God will chose what he accepts and doesn't. We do our bes through his grace and by his blood to love him that's all that matters. Stick to your church and although there are many knots in the way find CHRIST in them and allow him to dwell in you.
    Forgive me
  • Yeah why should we even bother with theology or patristics or anything that causes any division really? We should all just love God. That's it - it's so simple. I mean what is the point of learning Coptic? Just love God, forget that silly old language. Are the RC sacraments valid? Who gives a darn - just love God. Are our sacraments valid? Doesn't bother me if they aren't, I'll still love God.

    [move]♪ ♫ "All you need is love, love, love. Love is all you need"  ♩ ♬[/move]
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=12200.msg143773#msg143773 date=1314516000]
    Zoxasi you're extremely intelligent and wise in your thought process. Unfortunately with my experiences in our beautiful church is that erryone will give you a different answer. Some will say only the Coptic will enter the kingdom some say only orthodox and catholic. And apparently we worry about who elses sacraments are wrong and whose are right instead of focusing on who accepts and consecrated those sacraments. IT IS THE LORD JESUS HIMSELF WHO MAKES THESE SACRAMENTS INTO WHAT WE BELIEVE THEM TO HE. who are we o say this is real or fake. God is much more simple we make him sooooooooo difficult! Habibi my few words of advice is to not bother asking those questions lol because I have and gotten shutdown by many closed minds. Take ur thoughts and use them to see god in the true loving god that he is and not a set of rules on whose communion we accept or don't accept! Or baptism for that matter or any other thing that another Bridgman denomination does! God will chose what he accepts and doesn't. We do our bes through his grace and by his blood to love him that's all that matters. Stick to your church and although there are many knots in the way find CHRIST in them and allow him to dwell in you.
    Forgive me


    THanks for the very generous complements, that I don't deserve. However, I'm not asking questions nor judging who is saved or not saved.

    That's no one's business.

    However, this topic is the part of the Coptic Orthodox Church section where it is open for comparative theological discussions. That's all.

    There comes a point where you cannot keep on telling students "Concentrate on your own salvation" when they are trying to learn about differences with other denominations.

  • Actually, I am pretty positive that our Church recognizes the Eucharist of ALL the EO Churches. But, if I am wrong correct me. I have been told that all the OO synods have officially declared them to be Orthodox. But of course, just because we don't intercommune with all the EO Churches like the Greek Alexandrian Church doesn't necessarily mean we don't recognize their Eucharist. Just because the Bishops are divided doesn't make their Eucharist less grace-filled/"valid" (to use a Latin catholic theological term).

    When I say "recognize" I mean allows Copts to take communion there.  The Coptic Synod has never actually made any official statements about the "validity" of anyone's Eucharist.  Might as well leave it at that.
  • I'm just curious, but why is everyone using the term EO for the RC? The RC are not part of the EO. - I know the Byzantine Rite of the RC is indeed VERY close to the EO, and it is quite common for them to become EO's, but inherently, whoever is under Rome, is not part of the EO. Please do correct me if I'm wrong on this.

    Is this comment due to this thread?  Haven't seen anyone apply EO to Roman Catholicism (RC).

    This is a strange topic really - because our Sunday School teacher (who is quite a good theologian) said that although we do not permit our faithful to partake of the RC sacraments, the Eucharist is indeed the Body of Christ.

    OK.. so my question is this, if we do recognise (supposedly) that the Eucharist on the altar in the RC church is indeed the Body of Christ, then why do we not also recognise their baptism also. That means that their marriages are not recognised.

    Not so sure your sunday school teacher is correct.
  • My conclusion that their sacraments are valid is based on the above logic. Its not someone's fault if he was born Catholic!! I knew about Orthodoxy thanks to my parents. Their parents were catholic. Indeed, now I know both Churches, its clear that Orthodoxy is the best way. It will even save the Catholic Church from its own internal problems. It needs to return to Orthodoxy.

    Is it anyone's fault that they were born non-Christian?  Where do you stop with this logic?

    Are Catholics saved?  God knows, we don't.

    St. Basil the Great:

    Whether a man has departed this life without baptism, or has received a baptism lacking in some of the requirements
    of the tradition, his loss is equal. And whoever does not always and everywhere keep to and hold fast as a sure
    protection the confession which we recorded at our first admission, constitutes himself a stranger from the promises
    of God, fighting against his own handwriting, which he put on record when he professed the faith.

    Is this applicable to Catholics?  Who knows.

    A topic of too much speculation, better to focus on questions we can know the answers to.
  • In response to unworthy

    That is the completely wron message that I was trying to avoid!! OUR CHURH IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL AND CORRECT CHURCH IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. Most of it's rites are amazing! The sacraments in it are 100%%% accurate and are hand consummated by god!! We ought to respect the sacraments and the rites and our faith and definitely care about why were accurate! Don't get me wrong!! We need to know why we are correct!!! But we can't let our correctness allow us to condemn other people! And we can't let our condemning get in the way of our personal relationship with our God. Our fathers defended the faith and many millions of martyrs died to keep the faith and we must take pride and keep our faith the straight way. But it isn't our business to say these are accepted and these aren't. We must worry About ourselves. Each one of us is unworthy to enter heaven and yet the blood of our savior makes us worthy! No matter what we do in our lives we won't enter heaven unless gods grace completes us! That's our faith! So why can't we let god chose to him he gives his salvation! He came and gave salvation to ALL let's give him the authority to judge whom he chooses to enter his dwelling place!
    My point is that we can't become too loose and forget our church ! COPTIC IS BEAUTIFUL the alhan is a hugeeeee boost in someone's spiritual life if one lows himself to see is true meaning. We must care that we are correct we must abide in the correct faith!! And stay there but as St Paul says in Romans chapter9 he would rather be accursed himself and let all his brother be believers in christ! How many of us would say the same? That we'd rather our protestant brothers or catholic brothers  to enter and us be accursed?? Stay strong in your church just don't attack anyone else's
  • [quote author=COPT.Mark link=topic=12200.msg143783#msg143783 date=1314542893]

    Not so sure your sunday school teacher is correct.



    Darn.. can we get an official answer then?

    I don't mind what the answer is, I just want it official. Do we recognise that this is indeed the Holy Body of Christ in the Roman Catholic consecrated Eucharist?

    Let's say that its NOT the Holy Body - then it means that the Catholic marriage is not Holy either. Right? I think we've been through this discussion before, but i've lost track of where we were.

    Of course we can go one step further and ask ourselves if we are saved, and that we should focus on our own spiritual salvation. Agreed. But are Coptic Orthodox Christians allowed to have any intellectual enjoyment or debate in that case?

    I'm not asking if they are saved or not.

    Look, I KNOW THEY ARE SAVED. Not all of them, but there's no way God would not allow His Body and Blood to be denied to someone who believes that he or she is indeed in NEED of His Body and Blood for the remission of sins. That's just not our God. It does not mean that we should throw spiritual tradition and teachings away because God accepts the sacraments in the RC. Not at all.. on the contrary. We ought to hold on strong to the spiritual traditions that have been in existence since the time of the Apostles, nor adding, nor taking anything away to the Holy Sacraments.

  • Please, let's get back on topic. I was asking for a synodal statement on the Roman Church's Sacraments if one existed, or something like that.
  • @Soverian

    Your question was originally about RC Eucharist, and I alread answered it:

    The Coptic Synod has never actually made any official statements about the "validity" of anyone's Eucharist.

  • Darn.. can we get an official answer then?

    The Church has never made Synodal decisions to appease curiosity.  These decisions are only made when there is a real need to refute attacks on the Faith.  This goes as far back as the Orthodox Creed itself (Nicea and Constantinople wouldn't have happened if people didn't attack the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit).

    So, answer is "no, not as of now".  :)
  • [quote author=COPT.Mark link=topic=12200.msg143800#msg143800 date=1314554953]

    Darn.. can we get an official answer then?

    The Church has never made Synodal decisions to appease curiosity.  These decisions are only made when there is a real need to refute attacks on the Faith.  This goes as far back as the Orthodox Creed itself (Nicea and Constantinople wouldn't have happened if people didn't attack the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit).

    So, answer is "no, not as of now".  :)


    Thanks Copt.Mark for your answer. I just don't get it though.

    You say that the Church has never made a Synodal decision to appease curiosity and The Coptic Synod has never actually made any official statements about the "validity" of anyone's Eucharist, and then you say "no, not as of now".

    The "no, not as of now" means that we do not accept their Eucharist as being the Real Body of Christ, or what? If it does mean that, then your previous statements are in contradiction, because if we haven't made an official statement concerning it, then how can we then deny that this is the real Eucharist.

    I like the idea that the Coptic Church has not made an official statement. I don't think it should either. If it agrees that this is the Body of Christ, then it is interfering in the RC's business. If it denies that this is the real Body of Christ, then it causes more problems over nothing.
  • My "no, not as of now" was to answer your question "Darn.. can we get an official answer then?"

    As in, no, we cannot get an official answer as of now.
  • [quote author=COPT.Mark link=topic=12200.msg143804#msg143804 date=1314559800]
    My "no, not as of now" was to answer your question "Darn.. can we get an official answer then?"

    As in, no, we cannot get an official answer as of now.


    Sorted. Thanks Copt.Mark,

    Sorry for any confusion.

    I take it then that its up to the individual to discern whether he/she should have communion there then?
  • Thank you COPT.Mark, I said what I said because I sensed a fight was coming on.

    EDIT: Father Peter has given a very good answer to this question here:
    http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38919.msg630125.html#msg630125
  • I take it then that its up to the individual to discern whether he/she should have communion there then?

    No, the only communion we can take is that of other OO churches or the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria (only if you are married to one of them).

    If you actually go to a Catholic Church and pick up their Liturgy book, you will find (I think on the cover) a section about communion instructions.  When they get to the OO, they say you are welcome to take communion but that they ask that you observe what your church teaches.  Which, in the case of the Coptic Church, would be to not take communion.

    I guess this is what I was getting at when I first posted.

    Officially, you cannot take communion there AND there has been no official statement about their communion's "validity" (i.e. whether it is the Body and Blood of Christ).
  • Thank you COPT.Mark, I said what I said because I sensed a fight was coming on.

    I hope it wasn't anything I said.  Not trying to be confrontational at all :).
  • [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=12200.msg143787#msg143787 date=1314548613]
    In response to unworthy

    That is the completely wron message that I was trying to avoid!! OUR CHURH IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL AND CORRECT CHURCH IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. Most of it's rites are amazing! The sacraments in it are 100%%% accurate and are hand consummated by god!! We ought to respect the sacraments and the rites and our faith and definitely care about why were accurate! Don't get me wrong!! We need to know why we are correct!!! But we can't let our correctness allow us to condemn other people! And we can't let our condemning get in the way of our personal relationship with our God. Our fathers defended the faith and many millions of martyrs died to keep the faith and we must take pride and keep our faith the straight way. But it isn't our business to say these are accepted and these aren't. We must worry About ourselves. Each one of us is unworthy to enter heaven and yet the blood of our savior makes us worthy! No matter what we do in our lives we won't enter heaven unless gods grace completes us! That's our faith! So why can't we let god chose to him he gives his salvation! He came and gave salvation to ALL let's give him the authority to judge whom he chooses to enter his dwelling place!
    My point is that we can't become too loose and forget our church ! COPTIC IS BEAUTIFUL the alhan is a hugeeeee boost in someone's spiritual life if one lows himself to see is true meaning. We must care that we are correct we must abide in the correct faith!! And stay there but as St Paul says in Romans chapter9 he would rather be accursed himself and let all his brother be believers in christ! How many of us would say the same? That we'd rather our protestant brothers or catholic brothers  to enter and us be accursed?? Stay strong in your church just don't attack anyone else's


    I can't disagree with this. My apologies for misunderstanding your other post. However, there is a seeming contradiction in your post: You suggest that all we should do is worry about ourselves, while at the same time suggesting that we be accursed for the sake of others' salvation. . .

  • [quote author=COPT.Mark link=topic=12200.msg143813#msg143813 date=1314564051]
    Officially, you cannot take communion there AND there has been no official statement about their communion's "validity" (i.e. whether it is the Body and Blood of Christ).
    http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38919.msg630125.html#msg630125

    In this post on OC.net some of our Hierarchs seem to be implying that RC sacraments are "valid". I have heard of isolated cases where Coptic Bishops give their faithful dispensation to commune in RC parishes, that indicates to me that we don't view them as being completely graceless.

    For whatever my opinion might be worth, I believe that perhaps the Roman Church's sacraments are grace-filled. BUT, assuming their sacraments are grace-filled, they still lack the fulness of grace found within the Orthodox Church. But this is just my two cents worth.
  • Latins believe in the transubstantiation of the bread and wine. We do not.

  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12200.msg143827#msg143827 date=1314578739]
    Latins believe in the transubstantiation of the bread and wine. We do not.


    True, but considering all the other heresies they hold, would that of all things jeopardize the "validity" of their Eucharist? Plus, can't transubstantiation be held as theologumen or am I wrong?
  • Why are we even talking in RC terms like "validity"? I've never heard any Orthodox (EO or OO) talk about sacraments this way. This seems weird.
  • @imikhail and Severian

    What in the world are you two talking about?  "Transubstantiation" means "the changing of one substance into another."  You two better believe that the wine and bread are turned into the Blood and Body of Christ.  If this transubstantiation does not happen, we all have a massive problem on our hands.

    Here - go to page 68 of this PDF: http://www.copticpope.org/books/Questionsv4.pdf

    Pope Shenouda, far from arguing against transubstantiation, is answering a question about WHEN it happens, not IF it happens.
  • The word "validity" is an English term, not a Roman Catholic term.
  • [quote author=COPT.Mark link=topic=12200.msg143830#msg143830 date=1314579678]
    @imikhail and Severian

    What in the world are you two talking about?  "Transubstantiation" means "the changing of one substance into another."  You two better believe that the wine and bread are turned into the Blood and Body of Christ.  If this transubstantiation does not happen, we all have a massive problem on our hands.

    Here - go to page 68 of this PDF: http://www.copticpope.org/books/Questionsv4.pdf

    Pope Shenouda, far from arguing against transubstantiation, is answering a question about WHEN it happens, not IF it happens.
    Transubstantiation is different from the Orthodox concept. See here: http://suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1249&catid=606
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