Sure, but some cultures may have traditional melodies that are incompatible with an Orthodox way. When the two conflict, the people's traditions must be adjusted.
Okay, but I don't think I understand why you chose the examples you did. I thought we were talking about the melodies themselves, not the register or whatever you'd call it (loud, quiet, etc). Also, instruments other than time/measure-keeping (like the drum for the Ethiopians and Eritreans, or the cymbals for the Copts) could be problematic, I guess, though I have heard some Syriac and Malankara Orthodox liturgies with organ-type instruments, used a la Greek Orthodox use of the same (for base "tones" or whatever...I don't know if that's an actual part of the Syriac approach to the liturgy, but I mean to convey that it wasn't like when Roman Catholics use the organ as a performance instrument).
Sure, but some cultures may have traditional melodies that are incompatible with an Orthodox way. When the two conflict, the people's traditions must be adjusted.
Okay, but I don't think I understand why you chose the examples you did. I thought we were talking about the melodies themselves, not the register or whatever you'd call it (loud, quiet, etc).
Maybe I used bad examples or I don't understand what a melody is. I thought melodies were a combination of rhythm and pitch. How can we talk about the whole without discussing its parts?
St. Mark Orthodox Church in NYC (yes its under the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate)
Liturgy is celebrated completely in English from start to finish. While there are no Protesant hymns sung at communion time there are hymns sung in english appropriate for communion in the coptic tune (such as Pioik=the Bread of Life, Layal il Asha2=Night of the Last Supper) or more American style tunes...I've heard of younger Copts composing their own hymns based on the Psalms or based on the rite, ie. communion. As long as they are not cheesy and unorthodox what is so wrong with that?
There is a small coptic church in my city which conducts the entire liturgy in english, even tai shori, the hiteniats, the Trisagion etc. and its purpose is for converts. I think the only coptic in the entire service is "eshlil, epi prosevki stathite" and "Pikhristos Pennouti, Amen aseshopi".
While so far only a few converts have actually come out of this church, it is definitely a start and the converts from this church were not the result of mixed marriages (meaning that they were genuine conversions). On the other hand, some of the younger Copts who go to the other churches in the city are accusing this church of selling out the "Coptic faith" as they like to call it because they do not use the Coptic language...they explain that they use coptic rituals, and music, and iconography and incense but that is not good enough.
Despite the recent influx of immigrants from Egypt, we Copts now are quickly losing our Arabic after only 1 or 2 generations being away from Egypt. What I’ve always admired about the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) is that while it does indeed have a very Russian feel to it in the sense that its icons, music, and many saints are Russian, they have always made it a point to conduct 100% of their services in English for the average American to understand what is happening. I agree with those who say that we need mission parishes like this around besides the ethnic Coptic parishes. Ideally this wouldn’t be so, but for the sake of reaching out and evangelizing I think its something we need to do, otherwise those who accuse us of solely preserving our culture through the Church would be unfortunately correct. Organically, the Coptic church in the diaspora will grow and change and adapt as it is also doing now. The Coptic church in 50 years from now will look very different in some sense than it does now. This shouldn’t frighten us but rather we should take an active role in preserving what we can (that is beneficial) while still being able to pass down the faith in a communicable way. I would rather that Pekethronos is passed down in English in 100 years than for it to completely disappear because nobody had bothered to learn it in Coptic. Some may say this proposition sounds ridiculous but is it really? 50 years ago, Egypt was a much more modern, westernized country and Christians were much safer and freer then...usually as time goes on the trend has been for this to increase, however the case of Egypt and the Middle East in general shows us that unfortunately they are going back in time and constantly deteriorating. Back to Pekethronos, there are efforts to convert these long hymns into English...however another point and observation made by many is that most non-Copts cannot and will not understand or appreciate the lengthy vowelled Coptic hymns whether in Coptic or in any other language. I was speaking to one such convert and he told me how he felt he was just singing vowels that lasted 5 minutes. While I myself do appreciate the Coptic tunes because I was brought up with them, I cannot expect my convert friend to. Christ did say to preach the Gospel, not to preach Hezzat or Copticism or Hellenism etc. If it takes for us to have a parish for these people who want to be spiritually fed and not necessarily Copticially fed, then so be it. Again, the liturgy will be the Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil, the music sung could definitely be (but not nec. limited to) Coptic music. An example is the Tasbeha CD put out by St. Anthony’s monastery. They did a fantastic job! While I loooove Shere Ne Maria (the long lahn) and in English, the melismatic tune was a joke compared to the Coptic one but I can’t expect most of my non Coptic friends to ever try and learn it. In the end, we must reach people where they are at. That is the most basic and fundamental thing.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=11903.msg142580#msg142580 date=1312524869] I would rather that Pekethronos is passed down in English in 100 years than for it to completely disappear because nobody had bothered to learn it in Coptic. Some may say this proposition sounds ridiculous but is it really?
I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but Pekthronos in English? Come on, Timothy. There will always be people who want to preserve these hymns in Coptic and may God reward them for it.
In any case, our Lord is the Good Shepherd who desires for there to be one flock. Let us pray that His will be done, always.
I just want to say ONE last point about this issue -
If the priest does not speak the native language of the country he is in, he will also not be accustomed to the culture, or the way of behaviour of the natives there. This is a huge problem.
He will be so Egyptian in his personality, and as you know, this has many ways of manifesting itself:
In France, for example, its not the one who shouts the loudest that gains the highest respect. Its not the one who acts holy who is treated with holiness.
I know with Egyptians, when someone is in a position of authority (whether Christian or Muslim), they will ride you, like a donkey.
SO MANY PRIESTS I have seen in Europe have done this. Once they are in a position of power, will really enjoy the ride (on your expense).
I am not so concerned about the tunes of hymns. I agree with Unworthy1 that the different hymns should follow different tunes, and in the West there is already an ancient tradition of such tones/tunes which are as old as the 4th century. They are entirely Orthodox already. Personally, if the Coptic tunes were slightly Westernised then there would not be a problem using them. Of course this requires effort and commitment from those who are competent to do such a translation of tunes.
I also agree with Unworthy1 that it is not necessary or appropriate to simple allow a local culture to decide how it should inculturate Orthodoxy. I am also not comfortable with those African settings of Orthodoxy which have lots of dancing and clapping. We see from the Ethiopian/Eritrean tradition who Orthodoxy can be inculturated in sub-Saharan Africa while remaining sober and spiritual. I have spent 6 months with evangelical missionaries in Senegal and I know a little of the local culture, and how music and dance are part of the pagan religious culture, and therefore must surely be considered very cautiously when introducing Orthodoxy.
On the other hand I must ask if Unworthy1 has attended Ethiopian liturgies and has seen how they are conducted, and has then witnessed the use of clapping and liturgical dance in extra-liturgical worship? In the Ethiopian tradition there is no clapping in the liturgy.
I am not quite sure why some feel that the Coptic tradition is under threat from mission to English and other speaking peoples? The British Orthodox Church has not gone off and done something completely different. We do use the Liturgy of St James, but we use all the other rites of the Coptic Church. We pray the Agpeya. We wash feet. We fast according to the Coptic tradition. We venerate the Coptic saints. We understand and study Orthodox theology. We even organise Coptic Language classes. In what way do we diminish the Coptic Orthodox tradition by using English?
More could probably be done to help us integrate a wider selection of Coptic hymns into our worship, but let me be honest, where are the Copts who have offered to help? It is easy to say 'the hymn tradition is under threat from these English speakers', but where are the Copts who are helping us to use the Coptic hymns in English in a very high-quality manner?
If you want mission to Western people to be restricted to dioceses such as the BOC and the FOC so that the COC congregations can worship as they choose then surely there is a moral obligation to help us in our mission? If you want to be engaged in that mission yourself then surely there is a moral obligation to make your worship accessible in a language that local people can understand?
I have spent 6 months with evangelical missionaries in Senegal and I know a little of the local culture, and how music and dance are part of the pagan religious culture, and therefore must surely be considered very cautiously when introducing Orthodoxy.
On the other hand I must ask if Unworthy1 has attended Ethiopian liturgies and has seen how they are conducted, and has then witnessed the use of clapping and liturgical dance in extra-liturgical worship? In the Ethiopian tradition there is no clapping in the liturgy.
I do agree that dancing was part of paganism. However, religious dancing was part of the Jewish worship which included clapping and the using of musical instruments. This is well documented in the Bible.
So, I do not see any harm of using the cultural traditions into Orthodoxy, so long as these traditions do not lead to deviation.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11903.msg142584#msg142584 date=1312533245] On the other hand I must ask if Unworthy1 has attended Ethiopian liturgies and has seen how they are conducted, and has then witnessed the use of clapping and liturgical dance in extra-liturgical worship? In the Ethiopian tradition there is no clapping in the liturgy.
I have not been to an Ethiopian liturgy, myself. I was talking about Africa in general but I had Kenya in mind in specific. I have attended an Orthodox Day of Praise in our diocese before and remember the Ethiopians praying with large drums and clapping while making minor movements. Whether or not that happens during the liturgy I can't be sure of, but I heard that it does.
I was there at that event. The singing did not take place in the Liturgy.
My main point is not the more minor issues of culture. It is the issue of who should be doing mission if the Coptic tradition is threatened by mission?
If it is the BOC/FOC/etc then where is the support we need? And if it is the Coptic congregations then where is the inculturation that local enquirers and converts need?
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11903.msg142581#msg142581 date=1312526474] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=11903.msg142580#msg142580 date=1312524869] I would rather that Pekethronos is passed down in English in 100 years than for it to completely disappear because nobody had bothered to learn it in Coptic. Some may say this proposition sounds ridiculous but is it really?
I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but Pekthronos in English? Come on, Timothy. There will always be people who want to preserve these hymns in Coptic and may God reward them for it.
In any case, our Lord is the Good Shepherd who desires for there to be one flock. Let us pray that His will be done, always.
Unworthy1, this was just an extreme example. God willing (or perhaps I shouldn't say on this thread "inshallah" :) the Coptic chants will always remain with us in Coptic as well as in the vernacular.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11903.msg142598#msg142598 date=1312571734] I was there at that event. The singing did not take place in the Liturgy.
Did the singing not happen during the liturgy because it was lead by Coptic Orthodox clergy or because Ethiopians do not sing in this manner during the liturgy?
My main point is not the more minor issues of culture. It is the issue of who should be doing mission if the Coptic tradition is threatened by mission?
If it is the BOC/FOC/etc then where is the support we need? And if it is the Coptic congregations then where is the inculturation that local enquirers and converts need?
Coptic people (generally) are not fond of inculturation.
What support does the BOC need to do missionary work?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11903.msg142606#msg142606 date=1312582785] How do you think mission can properly take place without properly consistent and comprehensive support?
Is it possible for God to desire some ministry and for it to be thwarted by a lack of support?
Fr. Peter, I don't for a minute think that money is a prerequisite for missionary work. Do I even need to mention St. Paul the Apostle?
[quote=Luke 10:3-4] "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road."
the Bible also says those who preach should make their living from preaching. so small churches benefit from visits from people from a bigger church who meet with newcomers, give out leaflets, and give financial support so that priests and deacons don't have to do so much paid work. like if you look at the missions to south america, people go in a team, travel (costs money), eat (costs money) and take books and stuff with them (costs money) and also give stuff to poor people they meet (costs money). yes, there are times when God wants us to go without money, just being fed along the way, but also there are times when we must be well prepared.
for example, our Lord Jesus, before going into the garden of gethsemane, told the disciples to take stuff with them this time, not like the previous time. otherwise we would never give any priests a salary!
I never said that missionaries couldn't use money or that we shouldn't give it to them. I'm saying mission is possible without it. You live off of the work you do in the place you are preaching, or the hospitality of its citizens, etc. You have faith that God will provide. If there is money, by all means use it. But if there isn't, that doesn't mean the mission should cease.
I didn't see anything that would indicate that Fr. Peter implied (or stated) that money is a prerequisite for a mission or mission work. That being said, however, money is certainly a requisite for a mission and mission work. That is clear even from the time of Christ. You do recall that it was Judas who was carrying the money box (and took from it, implying that people did give them money). And St. Paul himself collected money on behalf of the Church in Jerusalem.
Yes Unworthy1, St. Paul in his second letter to the Corinthians tells them bluntly that he didn't want to impose on anybody and got money from other churches. However, I don't know why this post again is going into the direction of the COC being a missionary church. Yes, absolutely it is, but let's not forget that there is another aim to serve the Egyptians who live in the diaspora. Please please please don't make me imagine that the Coptic church will be British in Britain, French in France, American in America, and so on... like what Fr. Peter said there are already BOC denomination, and FOC denomination. It is really saddening to see the Copts being so easy on their heritage, and give up so easily as they don't have strong faith or argument in their own church. Next week, an all-English liturgy... OK, yeah, cool... in some places it already has been happening for a long time; an all-English liturgy in one church, and an all-Arabic in another... yeah, cool... guys, take a minute to think about it? What message is this sending out really? Unity... I personally don't think so... tolerance? I am not entirely sure. In Newcastle we have a Coptic church who is attended almost 30 - 40% by Ethiopians and Eritreans; I am so impressed by them, and at a loss as to why they have to come to church when we don't show we welcome them by praying in their language as well as Arabic and English (and to some extent Coptic... oh, how lucky). Our language is not Arabic. It is Coptic. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Copts do not bother about learning it, so what do the servants of the church do? Condescend and compromise of course... "faith is more important" "the letter kills while the spirit resurrects"... etc etc. Oujai qen `P[C
Thank God, the holy and blessed Apostles, when going out to preach to the nations by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, did not think like you and impose Hebrew culture and the Aramaic language on the Gentile nations. Instead, on that wondrous day, the day the Church was born, the Holy Spirit bestowed on these holy Apostles the gift of tongues, the ability to speak the languages of the Gentiles, so that they might preach the Gospels to all peoples in languages they understood. And not only in a language they understood, but gave them the structure of the liturgy, and then permitted them to adapt it to their cultures. Woe is us that we think we know better than the Apostles of Christ themselves. We, who have taken it upon ourselves to dictate how and what the Church should teach in the diaspora. The Coptic Church will always remain; in Egypt, where it was born. The Church of Alexandria, established by St. Mark, however, will continue to grow and spread and has grown to include the British Orthodox Church, the French Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Eretrian Orthodox Church. Hopefully one day, the See of St. Mark, born in Alexandria, but spread throughout the world, will include the Canadian Orthodox Church, the American Orthodox Church, the Australian Orthodox Church and every [insert nation] Orthodox Church. In the end, there is only ONE CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC ORTHODOX CHURCH OF GOD.
'One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.' - St. Paul to the Ephesians (note the absences of 'one culture' and 'one language')
Dear Cephas, I guess you want to disagree but essentially you are saying the same thing that I am with one exception. I am saying that the Coptic Orthodox Church has a dual role (as in an earlier post, not sure you already read it): 1. serving the Copts in the diaspora (by Copts I mean people who immigrate from Egypt), and 2. being missionary. The fruits borne out of the latter are as you quite rightly say the BOC, FOC, and hopefully in the near future a Canadian, American, ... so on. But to find the COC giving up on its aroma, atmosphere, and later traditions for the sake for inculturation is not right in my view, as per my last post. You cannot have an English liturgy with English-translated Coptic hymns, and another in the same church with Arabic-translated Coptic hymns. That simply means one thing, I don't really think I need to expand on anyway. What happened in Egypt in the beginning of the 20th century was something quite similar. The priests of the Coptic church wanted rid of the Coptic hymns, because they were complicated and a minority could understand them, let alone learn them in those times, so they said we can replace hymns with some Christian songs, and short prayers to constitute the whole liturgy and end by Communion (ala Protestant-type approach). Dr. Ragheb Moftah stood up and never rested, and told every body the Coptic church is rich with her traditions, and gems, and they will not be forsaken. He then brought some German and English musicologists, and recorded the Coptic hymns, and later HICS followed those notations and we all know what happened afterwards. That was inside Egypt, that was the Coptic Orthodox Church. Oujai qen `P[C
Wow, really? I never would've guessed that there would've been this sort of movement within the Coptic church to get rid of Coptic hymns, esp back then, however it seems that even in the 19th century, Egyptians were more westernized in a sense (not secularized) or open-minded than we are today. I guess the opennes of the Brits affected us back then as the closedness of the Muslims also has an affect on us these days in Egypt. It seems this would've been a similar movement as the Vatican II disaster.
There's inculturation and then there's abandoning yourselves to attract people who would otherwise think you're too weird. Inculturation happens naturally, and I don't know why anyone here should be against it. The other idea is unacceptable, however. I need only think of various points raised by Maronite friends regarding the degradation of their church's liturgical life after the start of the civil war in Lebanon (1975) to see that it is not always the best idea to be willing to shed layers of history in the name of incluturation. Luckily, I don't think that this is necessarily a zero-sum game, and those same Maronite friends willingly acknowledge that the problem for their people is leadership that reminds them of who they are, so they don't wander off looking for an identity in the new lands (or, in the case of Lebanon proper, the old land with the new demographics and cultural dynamics).
So, how is the leadership in the Coptic church? I have to believe that it is significantly better than that of others (being orthodox and all). With good leadership, cultural differences can be handled in a way that is sensitive to everyone's concerns without asking anyone to be anything they're not. It isn't necessarily that way in every place, but that does not change the fact that it is possible to be Orthodox and be Egyptian, Korean, Aleut, or whatever. If you folks find anything more important than the first classifier, then by all means follow whatever religion that is, because it surely isn't Orthodoxy as I'm being taught it. :P
I just finished attending a Catholic Liturgy in Paris. To be totally honest with you, its NOTHING compared to an Orthodox Liturgy.
Let's keep things in perspective: Nothing compares to the Orthodox Church. Its the best... the only thing needed is for priests to speak the native language. I don't think its too much to ask!? Is it?!
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11903.msg142732#msg142732 date=1312749318] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg142731#msg142731 date=1312748683] Hi Everyone,
I just finished attending a Catholic Liturgy in Paris. To be totally honest with you, its NOTHING compared to an Orthodox Liturgy.
yet you still go to a catholic church and pray liturgy there..........life is weird you know.....also people.
No habibi.. I had some problems getting to the Orthodox Church today (long story). I was dying to go, but we missed it.
So, we thought at least we can attend the Catholic for a bit... and whilst I was there.. I couldn't help wish I was in the Orthodox Church.. there are many things we have that are good.
The sermon I heard was really "pointless" for a lack of a better word.
Indeed, to get to the Orthodox Church, from where i am, its really hard, but I made the effort, but it was not possible today for certain reasons that were out of my control.
In fact, we didn't decide to go to the Catholic Church.. we were sightseeing in the heart of Paris, and thought it would be a nice idea to drop in and listen to words of spiritual benefit. I couldn't say that I found any.
Not only that, but I fail to understand why the priest drinks the Blood of Christ, yet this is not given to anyone else. Also, what I fail to understand is that the priest prays on a large wafer for it to become the Holy Body, yet NO ONE partakes of this. Its only him and a few others that consume it. Everyone else eats a small wafer that wasn't even on the altar on that liturgy.
Finally, what REALLY REALLY bothers me is that he (the priest) gives the body to a few "selected" people whom HE DOES NOT KNOW to distribute the Body of Christ... what is that?????
some of the catholic liturgical practices are a bit strange, but the people who are allowed to distribute the consecrated bread are very carefully chosen. it is really difficult to do this and each church only has 1 or 2 people who are allowed to do this, who have to have a really good knowledge of the faith and a good spiritual life.
in the first years of Christianity, lay people were allowed to take home the consecrated bread and it was only later when it was realised that there could be misuse that there were stricter rules about it. so that in itself is not a shocking thing.
The Catholic Mass you've attended is a joke. There are so many liturgical abuses that happened in the Catholic Mass as a result of the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council, where they're shortened the Mass, made the priest turn around to face the congregation, and allowed so many heretical and useless means of worship in the church (just to keep people in the 1960's away from the cool Protestants and hippies).
Hopefully, one day, they'll revert back to their original way of worshipping. The Latin Mass (the Tridentine Mass) is one of the most beautiful and well-structured liturgical forms of worship in existence, and it's a shame that barely ANYONE witnesses this prayer and hears the Gregorian chants anymore. The Catholic Mass used be very orthodox, before the liturgical reforms and further abuses introduced by Pope Paul VI.
If you'd like to see how the Catholics SHOULD be worshiping and praying the Mass, you can see the whole Mass here:
This is prayed by a group who are in schism with the Vatican II Catholic Church in France.
What happened to the Catholic Church through Vatican II is a good lesson for the Orthodox churches, that we must be careful, discern and understand what we do, and worship in truth and spirit.
Comments
Sure, but some cultures may have traditional melodies that are incompatible with an Orthodox way. When the two conflict, the people's traditions must be adjusted.
Okay, but I don't think I understand why you chose the examples you did. I thought we were talking about the melodies themselves, not the register or whatever you'd call it (loud, quiet, etc). Also, instruments other than time/measure-keeping (like the drum for the Ethiopians and Eritreans, or the cymbals for the Copts) could be problematic, I guess, though I have heard some Syriac and Malankara Orthodox liturgies with organ-type instruments, used a la Greek Orthodox use of the same (for base "tones" or whatever...I don't know if that's an actual part of the Syriac approach to the liturgy, but I mean to convey that it wasn't like when Roman Catholics use the organ as a performance instrument).
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11903.msg142564#msg142564 date=1312511304]
Sure, but some cultures may have traditional melodies that are incompatible with an Orthodox way. When the two conflict, the people's traditions must be adjusted.
Okay, but I don't think I understand why you chose the examples you did. I thought we were talking about the melodies themselves, not the register or whatever you'd call it (loud, quiet, etc).
Maybe I used bad examples or I don't understand what a melody is. I thought melodies were a combination of rhythm and pitch. How can we talk about the whole without discussing its parts?
St. Mark Orthodox Church in NYC (yes its under the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate)
Liturgy is celebrated completely in English from start to finish. While there are no Protesant hymns sung at communion time there are hymns sung in english appropriate for communion in the coptic tune (such as Pioik=the Bread of Life, Layal il Asha2=Night of the Last Supper) or more American style tunes...I've heard of younger Copts composing their own hymns based on the Psalms or based on the rite, ie. communion. As long as they are not cheesy and unorthodox what is so wrong with that?
There is a small coptic church in my city which conducts the entire liturgy in english, even tai shori, the hiteniats, the Trisagion etc. and its purpose is for converts. I think the only coptic in the entire service is "eshlil, epi prosevki stathite" and "Pikhristos Pennouti, Amen aseshopi".
While so far only a few converts have actually come out of this church, it is definitely a start and the converts from this church were not the result of mixed marriages (meaning that they were genuine conversions). On the other hand, some of the younger Copts who go to the other churches in the city are accusing this church of selling out the "Coptic faith" as they like to call it because they do not use the Coptic language...they explain that they use coptic rituals, and music, and iconography and incense but that is not good enough.
Despite the recent influx of immigrants from Egypt, we Copts now are quickly losing our Arabic after only 1 or 2 generations being away from Egypt.
What I’ve always admired about the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) is that while it does indeed have a very Russian feel to it in the sense that its icons, music, and many saints are Russian, they have always made it a point to conduct 100% of their services in English for the average American to understand what is happening. I agree with those who say that we need mission parishes like this around besides the ethnic Coptic parishes. Ideally this wouldn’t be so, but for the sake of reaching out and evangelizing I think its something we need to do, otherwise those who accuse us of solely preserving our culture through the Church would be unfortunately correct.
Organically, the Coptic church in the diaspora will grow and change and adapt as it is also doing now. The Coptic church in 50 years from now will look very different in some sense than it does now. This shouldn’t frighten us but rather we should take an active role in preserving what we can (that is beneficial) while still being able to pass down the faith in a communicable way. I would rather that Pekethronos is passed down in English in 100 years than for it to completely disappear because nobody had bothered to learn it in Coptic. Some may say this proposition sounds ridiculous but is it really? 50 years ago, Egypt was a much more modern, westernized country and Christians were much safer and freer then...usually as time goes on the trend has been for this to increase, however the case of Egypt and the Middle East in general shows us that unfortunately they are going back in time and constantly deteriorating. Back to Pekethronos, there are efforts to convert these long hymns into English...however another point and observation made by many is that most non-Copts cannot and will not understand or appreciate the lengthy vowelled Coptic hymns whether in Coptic or in any other language. I was speaking to one such convert and he told me how he felt he was just singing vowels that lasted 5 minutes. While I myself do appreciate the Coptic tunes because I was brought up with them, I cannot expect my convert friend to. Christ did say to preach the Gospel, not to preach Hezzat or Copticism or Hellenism etc. If it takes for us to have a parish for these people who want to be spiritually fed and not necessarily Copticially fed, then so be it. Again, the liturgy will be the Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil, the music sung could definitely be (but not nec. limited to) Coptic music. An example is the Tasbeha CD put out by St. Anthony’s monastery. They did a fantastic job! While I loooove Shere Ne Maria (the long lahn) and in English, the melismatic tune was a joke compared to the Coptic one but I can’t expect most of my non Coptic friends to ever try and learn it. In the end, we must reach people where they are at. That is the most basic and fundamental thing.
I would rather that Pekethronos is passed down in English in 100 years than for it to completely disappear because nobody had bothered to learn it in Coptic. Some may say this proposition sounds ridiculous but is it really?
I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but Pekthronos in English? Come on, Timothy. There will always be people who want to preserve these hymns in Coptic and may God reward them for it.
In any case, our Lord is the Good Shepherd who desires for there to be one flock. Let us pray that His will be done, always.
If the priest does not speak the native language of the country he is in, he will also not be accustomed to the culture, or the way of behaviour of the natives there. This is a huge problem.
He will be so Egyptian in his personality, and as you know, this has many ways of manifesting itself:
In France, for example, its not the one who shouts the loudest that gains the highest respect. Its not the one who acts holy who is treated with holiness.
I know with Egyptians, when someone is in a position of authority (whether Christian or Muslim), they will ride you, like a donkey.
SO MANY PRIESTS I have seen in Europe have done this. Once they are in a position of power, will really enjoy the ride (on your expense).
I also agree with Unworthy1 that it is not necessary or appropriate to simple allow a local culture to decide how it should inculturate Orthodoxy. I am also not comfortable with those African settings of Orthodoxy which have lots of dancing and clapping. We see from the Ethiopian/Eritrean tradition who Orthodoxy can be inculturated in sub-Saharan Africa while remaining sober and spiritual. I have spent 6 months with evangelical missionaries in Senegal and I know a little of the local culture, and how music and dance are part of the pagan religious culture, and therefore must surely be considered very cautiously when introducing Orthodoxy.
On the other hand I must ask if Unworthy1 has attended Ethiopian liturgies and has seen how they are conducted, and has then witnessed the use of clapping and liturgical dance in extra-liturgical worship? In the Ethiopian tradition there is no clapping in the liturgy.
I am not quite sure why some feel that the Coptic tradition is under threat from mission to English and other speaking peoples? The British Orthodox Church has not gone off and done something completely different. We do use the Liturgy of St James, but we use all the other rites of the Coptic Church. We pray the Agpeya. We wash feet. We fast according to the Coptic tradition. We venerate the Coptic saints. We understand and study Orthodox theology. We even organise Coptic Language classes. In what way do we diminish the Coptic Orthodox tradition by using English?
More could probably be done to help us integrate a wider selection of Coptic hymns into our worship, but let me be honest, where are the Copts who have offered to help? It is easy to say 'the hymn tradition is under threat from these English speakers', but where are the Copts who are helping us to use the Coptic hymns in English in a very high-quality manner?
If you want mission to Western people to be restricted to dioceses such as the BOC and the FOC so that the COC congregations can worship as they choose then surely there is a moral obligation to help us in our mission? If you want to be engaged in that mission yourself then surely there is a moral obligation to make your worship accessible in a language that local people can understand?
Father Peter
So, I do not see any harm of using the cultural traditions into Orthodoxy, so long as these traditions do not lead to deviation.
On the other hand I must ask if Unworthy1 has attended Ethiopian liturgies and has seen how they are conducted, and has then witnessed the use of clapping and liturgical dance in extra-liturgical worship? In the Ethiopian tradition there is no clapping in the liturgy.
I have not been to an Ethiopian liturgy, myself. I was talking about Africa in general but I had Kenya in mind in specific. I have attended an Orthodox Day of Praise in our diocese before and remember the Ethiopians praying with large drums and clapping while making minor movements. Whether or not that happens during the liturgy I can't be sure of, but I heard that it does.
Here is an example
My main point is not the more minor issues of culture. It is the issue of who should be doing mission if the Coptic tradition is threatened by mission?
If it is the BOC/FOC/etc then where is the support we need? And if it is the Coptic congregations then where is the inculturation that local enquirers and converts need?
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=11903.msg142580#msg142580 date=1312524869]
I would rather that Pekethronos is passed down in English in 100 years than for it to completely disappear because nobody had bothered to learn it in Coptic. Some may say this proposition sounds ridiculous but is it really?
I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but Pekthronos in English? Come on, Timothy. There will always be people who want to preserve these hymns in Coptic and may God reward them for it.
In any case, our Lord is the Good Shepherd who desires for there to be one flock. Let us pray that His will be done, always.
Unworthy1, this was just an extreme example. God willing (or perhaps I shouldn't say on this thread "inshallah" :) the Coptic chants will always remain with us in Coptic as well as in the vernacular.
I was there at that event. The singing did not take place in the Liturgy.
Did the singing not happen during the liturgy because it was lead by Coptic Orthodox clergy or because Ethiopians do not sing in this manner during the liturgy? Coptic people (generally) are not fond of inculturation.
What support does the BOC need to do missionary work?
What support do you think any missionaries need?
The guidance of the Holy Spirit. But I guess you are talking about money. . .
Is it possible for God to desire some ministry and for it to be thwarted by a lack of support?
How do you think mission can properly take place without properly consistent and comprehensive support?
Is it possible for God to desire some ministry and for it to be thwarted by a lack of support?
Fr. Peter, I don't for a minute think that money is a prerequisite for missionary work. Do I even need to mention St. Paul the Apostle?
[quote=Luke 10:3-4] "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road."
so small churches benefit from visits from people from a bigger church who meet with newcomers, give out leaflets, and give financial support so that priests and deacons don't have to do so much paid work.
like if you look at the missions to south america, people go in a team, travel (costs money), eat (costs money) and take books and stuff with them (costs money) and also give stuff to poor people they meet (costs money).
yes, there are times when God wants us to go without money, just being fed along the way, but also there are times when we must be well prepared.
for example, our Lord Jesus, before going into the garden of gethsemane, told the disciples to take stuff with them this time, not like the previous time.
otherwise we would never give any priests a salary!
I didn't see anything that would indicate that Fr. Peter implied (or stated) that money is a prerequisite for a mission or mission work. That being said, however, money is certainly a requisite for a mission and mission work. That is clear even from the time of Christ. You do recall that it was Judas who was carrying the money box (and took from it, implying that people did give them money). And St. Paul himself collected money on behalf of the Church in Jerusalem.
However, I don't know why this post again is going into the direction of the COC being a missionary church. Yes, absolutely it is, but let's not forget that there is another aim to serve the Egyptians who live in the diaspora. Please please please don't make me imagine that the Coptic church will be British in Britain, French in France, American in America, and so on... like what Fr. Peter said there are already BOC denomination, and FOC denomination. It is really saddening to see the Copts being so easy on their heritage, and give up so easily as they don't have strong faith or argument in their own church. Next week, an all-English liturgy... OK, yeah, cool... in some places it already has been happening for a long time; an all-English liturgy in one church, and an all-Arabic in another... yeah, cool... guys, take a minute to think about it? What message is this sending out really? Unity... I personally don't think so... tolerance? I am not entirely sure. In Newcastle we have a Coptic church who is attended almost 30 - 40% by Ethiopians and Eritreans; I am so impressed by them, and at a loss as to why they have to come to church when we don't show we welcome them by praying in their language as well as Arabic and English (and to some extent Coptic... oh, how lucky).
Our language is not Arabic. It is Coptic. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Copts do not bother about learning it, so what do the servants of the church do? Condescend and compromise of course... "faith is more important" "the letter kills while the spirit resurrects"... etc etc.
Oujai qen `P[C
Thank God, the holy and blessed Apostles, when going out to preach to the nations by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, did not think like you and impose Hebrew culture and the Aramaic language on the Gentile nations. Instead, on that wondrous day, the day the Church was born, the Holy Spirit bestowed on these holy Apostles the gift of tongues, the ability to speak the languages of the Gentiles, so that they might preach the Gospels to all peoples in languages they understood. And not only in a language they understood, but gave them the structure of the liturgy, and then permitted them to adapt it to their cultures. Woe is us that we think we know better than the Apostles of Christ themselves. We, who have taken it upon ourselves to dictate how and what the Church should teach in the diaspora. The Coptic Church will always remain; in Egypt, where it was born. The Church of Alexandria, established by St. Mark, however, will continue to grow and spread and has grown to include the British Orthodox Church, the French Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Eretrian Orthodox Church. Hopefully one day, the See of St. Mark, born in Alexandria, but spread throughout the world, will include the Canadian Orthodox Church, the American Orthodox Church, the Australian Orthodox Church and every [insert nation] Orthodox Church. In the end, there is only ONE CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC ORTHODOX CHURCH OF GOD.
'One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.' - St. Paul to the Ephesians (note the absences of 'one culture' and 'one language')
I guess you want to disagree but essentially you are saying the same thing that I am with one exception. I am saying that the Coptic Orthodox Church has a dual role (as in an earlier post, not sure you already read it): 1. serving the Copts in the diaspora (by Copts I mean people who immigrate from Egypt), and 2. being missionary. The fruits borne out of the latter are as you quite rightly say the BOC, FOC, and hopefully in the near future a Canadian, American, ... so on. But to find the COC giving up on its aroma, atmosphere, and later traditions for the sake for inculturation is not right in my view, as per my last post. You cannot have an English liturgy with English-translated Coptic hymns, and another in the same church with Arabic-translated Coptic hymns. That simply means one thing, I don't really think I need to expand on anyway.
What happened in Egypt in the beginning of the 20th century was something quite similar. The priests of the Coptic church wanted rid of the Coptic hymns, because they were complicated and a minority could understand them, let alone learn them in those times, so they said we can replace hymns with some Christian songs, and short prayers to constitute the whole liturgy and end by Communion (ala Protestant-type approach). Dr. Ragheb Moftah stood up and never rested, and told every body the Coptic church is rich with her traditions, and gems, and they will not be forsaken. He then brought some German and English musicologists, and recorded the Coptic hymns, and later HICS followed those notations and we all know what happened afterwards. That was inside Egypt, that was the Coptic Orthodox Church.
Oujai qen `P[C
So, how is the leadership in the Coptic church? I have to believe that it is significantly better than that of others (being orthodox and all). With good leadership, cultural differences can be handled in a way that is sensitive to everyone's concerns without asking anyone to be anything they're not. It isn't necessarily that way in every place, but that does not change the fact that it is possible to be Orthodox and be Egyptian, Korean, Aleut, or whatever. If you folks find anything more important than the first classifier, then by all means follow whatever religion that is, because it surely isn't Orthodoxy as I'm being taught it. :P
I just finished attending a Catholic Liturgy in Paris. To be totally honest with you, its NOTHING compared to an Orthodox Liturgy.
Let's keep things in perspective: Nothing compares to the Orthodox Church. Its the best... the only thing needed is for priests to speak the native language. I don't think its too much to ask!? Is it?!
Hi Everyone,
I just finished attending a Catholic Liturgy in Paris. To be totally honest with you, its NOTHING compared to an Orthodox Liturgy.
yet you still go to a catholic church and pray liturgy there..........life is weird you know.....also people.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg142731#msg142731 date=1312748683]
Hi Everyone,
I just finished attending a Catholic Liturgy in Paris. To be totally honest with you, its NOTHING compared to an Orthodox Liturgy.
yet you still go to a catholic church and pray liturgy there..........life is weird you know.....also people.
No habibi.. I had some problems getting to the Orthodox Church today (long story). I was dying to go, but we missed it.
So, we thought at least we can attend the Catholic for a bit... and whilst I was there.. I couldn't help wish I was in the Orthodox Church.. there are many things we have that are good.
The sermon I heard was really "pointless" for a lack of a better word.
Indeed, to get to the Orthodox Church, from where i am, its really hard, but I made the effort, but it was not possible today for certain reasons that were out of my control.
In fact, we didn't decide to go to the Catholic Church.. we were sightseeing in the heart of Paris, and thought it would be a nice idea to drop in and listen to words of spiritual benefit. I couldn't say that I found any.
Not only that, but I fail to understand why the priest drinks the Blood of Christ, yet this is not given to anyone else.
Also, what I fail to understand is that the priest prays on a large wafer for it to become the Holy Body, yet NO ONE partakes of this. Its only him and a few others that consume it. Everyone else eats a small wafer that wasn't even on the altar on that liturgy.
Finally, what REALLY REALLY bothers me is that he (the priest) gives the body to a few "selected" people whom HE DOES NOT KNOW to distribute the Body of Christ... what is that?????
Of course it made me put things in perspective.
it is really difficult to do this and each church only has 1 or 2 people who are allowed to do this, who have to have a really good knowledge of the faith and a good spiritual life.
in the first years of Christianity, lay people were allowed to take home the consecrated bread and it was only later when it was realised that there could be misuse that there were stricter rules about it.
so that in itself is not a shocking thing.
Hopefully, one day, they'll revert back to their original way of worshipping. The Latin Mass (the Tridentine Mass) is one of the most beautiful and well-structured liturgical forms of worship in existence, and it's a shame that barely ANYONE witnesses this prayer and hears the Gregorian chants anymore. The Catholic Mass used be very orthodox, before the liturgical reforms and further abuses introduced by Pope Paul VI.
If you'd like to see how the Catholics SHOULD be worshiping and praying the Mass, you can see the whole Mass here:
This is prayed by a group who are in schism with the Vatican II Catholic Church in France.
What happened to the Catholic Church through Vatican II is a good lesson for the Orthodox churches, that we must be careful, discern and understand what we do, and worship in truth and spirit.